I assume most of you are semi-familiar with drama surrounding Jen Hatmaker. Last week, “Religion News Service” published an interview they conducted with her in which she “came out” in support of same-sex relationships. Sadly, her revelation didn’t come as much of a surprise. She made a couple of ambiguous, suspicion-provoking comments earlier this year that indicated she might have been shifting toward a gay-affirming sexual ethic. Her recent statements to RNS confirmed that such a shift has in fact occurred.

However, Jen is not the pioneer of this movement away from orthodoxy. The number of professing Christians rejecting the biblical sexual ethic (as it is traditionally understood) has steadily been climbing over the last few years. Many who once submitted to the Bible’s clear condemnation of homosexual behavior now propose that theologians have long been off base in their interpretation of the texts addressing this issue. They don’t believe the Scriptures speak ill of loving, monogamous same-sex relationships, but only homosexual activity in the context of rape, child molestation, and idol worship.

When I became a believer in 2010, all of the self-identified Christians in my life were overjoyed to hear I was no longer partaking in what they themselves described as the sin of homosexuality. They unequivocally supported my unexpected decision to live in obedience to Christ. However, the vast majority of these faith-professing people are singing an entirely different tune today. Though they initially patted me on the back as I embarked on this difficult yet unthinkably satisfying journey, they now believe my repentance is self-destructive—and that my “message” (the gospel) is a poison to other same-sex attracted people.

“I admire you for the strength you exert every day in suppressing this part of yourself,” some kindly say, “but you don’t have to live like this. God wants you to be happy with a person you find desirable. He will still love and bless you if you find a man to spend the rest of your life with.” And then there are other professing Christians who take a not-as-nice approach and run around town telling people (who later tell me) that I am deceiving myself, misrepresenting Jesus, and negatively influencing others with my antiquated beliefs.

I understand this is part of the gospel package. Following Jesus with this thorn lodged in my side is always going to earn me some sideways looks. The way my repentance fleshes out is weird and counter-cultural. But it’s not counter-Christian—and this is where I struggle. How am I supposed to respond to faith-professing people who have deviated from the clear teaching of Scripture? Is this a matter we shouldn’t split hairs over, or is it alarmingly serious? Can I—should I—continue to enjoy fellowship with them and view them as my brothers and sisters in Christ?

Paul minced no words when instructing the Corinthians in how to respond to professing Christians who personally indulge in sexual immorality (and a whole slew of other sins) and refuse to repent:

“ . . . I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.” – 1 Corinthians 5:11

Though the postmodern masses may describe the above response as unloving and intolerant, it is a good, right, and faithful response that preserves the purity of the Church and demonstrates to the deviant person the gravity of his or her unrepentant error. The hope and aim is that this person, by means of detachment from the fellowship of believers, will be shaken out of his sinful stupor and enter repentantly back into the fellowship (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).

But what about the person who calls himself a Christian and doesn’t personally participate in sexual immorality, but he encourages others to do so? Is this a lesser offense that merits a less severe response?

I’ve been asking myself this question for some time, and, after seeking the Lord’s wisdom in the Scriptures, I have arrived at the conclusion that I cannot extend the hand of fellowship to a gay-affirming person—nor can I affirm his or her salvation.

Paul spends the last half of Romans 1 describing the vile state of man in his unregenerate condition. After addressing the sin of homosexual behavior at length and then listing about two-dozen other sins that characterize the unbelieving life, he summarizes the chapter with the following verse:

“Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” – Romans 1:32 (emphasis mine)

Paul considers “giving approval” to those who indulge in homosexual sin a grave enough matter that he included it in one of the most damning passages in the entire Bible. This is obviously not one of those non-essential issues around which there is room for differing perspectives. Encouraging other people to embrace a way of life that God defines as abominable seems to be a “make it or break it” kind of thing.

Though it is difficult to do so, we must realize there is a terrifying possibility that our “Christian” friends and family members who heartily approve of same-sex relationships may possess a darkened, unrighteous, truth-suppressing heart (Romans 1:18-23). Though these people insist that they know Jesus, and though their lives are decorated with Christian-looking deeds and activities, it is possible that Jesus does not know them (Matthew 7:21-23).

If we really care about these people, we cannot chalk this up to a simple difference of opinion and continue engaging with them as if all is well with their souls. We must tell them, in love and with tears, that their willingness to condone what God despises is symptomatic of an evil, unbelieving heart that has the potential to lead them away from the living God (Hebrews 3:12). We must plead with them to forsake this path of destruction and come sprinting back to the “faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3).

“My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” – James 5:19-20

  • Lyle Nelson

    Ephesians 4:15 tells us to always “speak the truth in love”. I think that very simple command tells us what is the right (and the wrong) thing to do here. Truth here means Biblical truth, not “whatever seems right, based on how I feel, and what I think God must think” truth. More and more often, those two are miles apart.

    “In love” requires us NOT to have a “holier than thou” attitude, and a deep, heartfelt realization that we are just as sinful as the person we are talking to. We must not give a pass to our sin, while condemning theirs. That is being a hypocrite, and absolutely does nothing but alienate the other person, likely making things worse than they already were. That absolutely is not love. Without what Christ accomplished at the cross, we would be every bit as lost as they are.

    And, as with pastors, I believe there are extra responsibilities and a higher standard for anyone who is in a preaching/teaching/author type of position, and thus has much greater opportunity to influence others. In our current world, the responsibilities that were once limited to those in a pastoral role are more often borne by people in these other roles, such as those in online media or authors, and so it would seem that they ought to also bear the accompanying higher standards.

    • Regan DuCasse

      Why is it that “whatever seems right based on how I feel…” is used as such a tool against those who challenge your line of thinking?
      That’s a dismissive and disrespectful way of assuming some people didn’t get to their conclusions by a considerable amount of work, courage and not just feelings…but empirical experience?
      Our current world has given us a huge range of options for experience, exchange and education.
      That the Bible actual limits.
      Higher standards? I’m witnessing double standards, for gay people in the real world.
      And whatever claims of the truth, Bible believers keep going on about, there isn’t a lot they can say has done the same social good for gay people, or women, that it has for others.

      • Lyle Nelson

        I am basing my line of thinking on what God says in the Bible. No amount of work, courage and empirical evidence changes that. No matter how many options for experience, exchange and education we have, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever and His Word remains what it is. By higher standards, I simply meant that those who are in a position to influence a larger number of people with their views, because of the power of online media etc., are held to higher standards of behavior. Again, that is Biblical. Admittedly the church has not always done a good job of treating gays, women and other marginalized groups well. That is because of not always acting “in love” as they should. As I said, those in the Church must admit their own sin as well, and this is definitely a part of it.

        • Regan DuCasse

          I think Lyle, that the definition of love, and how it’s performed, isn’t consistent in the Bible or among, or from Christians.
          Treat another as you’d be treated, is enough.
          And by extension, if other people have advanced themselves and human life through their work, courage and experience, then a person of faith benefiting from it, should too.
          Lip service is easy, actions will always matter and most people know this too.
          You’re right then, about the power of the media and mass appeal.
          The Bible itself is media.
          Acknowledging past misdeeds on how entire groups of people have been treated historically and socio/politically is fine. That’s very hard to come by too.
          Now it’s ‘what are you going to do about it’ time.
          But applying MORE of the same from which that mistreatment came, isn’t a recipe for effective change for the better.

          • Lyle Nelson

            There are many types of love in the original Biblical languages; unfortunately they all get translated to “love” in English. Saying you love pizza is very different than saying you love your spouse. Likewise someone “advancing yourself” has different meanings to different people, depending on what their objectives and standards are. Absolutely the Bible is media. Unfortunately, in an imperfect world (and that absolutely includes Christians) we can hope for some change for the better, and work towards it, but we will not totally achieve it this side of heaven. Sin will always stymy our efforts.

          • Regan DuCasse

            In the Bible, there was no room for gays to live, to exist or have any opportunity to inform, teach or allow for who they are to be fully known.
            They were ordered to be executed.
            And such things were carried out, next came imprisonment and torture in those prisons.
            So if the Bible were strictly adhered to, Matt and his supporters wouldn’t be around to say anything.
            How does this deserve tempering and changing, but gay people being treated with the full faith and credit of ordinary life that’s accepted routinely, is not?

            This is where the lack of consistency is evident except where convenient.
            Either gay people are to accept being marched off to be killed or disappeared.
            The middle, is that you get to live, but restricted to what Christians decide for you.
            And that might be difficult to ever know what that could be, since Christians aren’t too consistent in a lot of things to do with civil law and so on.
            See my problem here?

          • Sandi Luckins

            Have you never heard of Jesus? He died on a cross and took all of our sin on Him. Christ gives us grace while we are still unrepentant – until the time of our death – that He will not destroy us – hoping that we will eventually choose Him over the sin.
            Hence, Christians keep trying to help homosexuals to see their sin and get rid of it – rather than stoning. There is an experience much worse than stoning awaiting anyone who rejects Christ in this life.

          • Regan DuCasse

            You’re proving just how deaf a Christian will be to another person. I just said, I was raised Christian.
            What is wrong with you?
            Regarding helping homosexuals, rather than stoning…the meantime isn’t much better.
            “There is an experience worse than stoning, awaiting anyone who rejects Christ in this life”.
            And therein, is emotional blackmail, a threat, so to speak.
            Yeah, I’ve heard that too. But the approach to all the other sins and sinners, isn’t the same.
            Gay people are singled out in a way that defies the logic, and rational social integration that’s been happening in recent decades.
            Explain that one.
            Bet you can’t. Or won’t.

          • CCW

            Yes it’s been singled out as a sin and treated differently. But that’s because its been categorized as the “other persons” sin. We all tend to self righteously judge the sins in others that we don’t struggle with but have grace for the sins in others that we do.

            So there are some sins in how the church has responded to the sin of homosexuality. But the church has sinned in this way with dealing with other sins too.

            On the flip side there are also tons of churches and christians who don’t treat it differently and extend compassion and grace while also saying it’s sin. But now this too is being called wrong when its the appropriate biblical response up to even breaking fellowship with someone who remains unrepentant.

            So no the capital punishment isn’t at play with homosexuality any longer in the church just like it isn’t for adultery and incest (also punishable by death under the civil laws of the OT) which Paul dealt with in 1Corinthians where he told the church to put them out of the fellowship for their refusal to repent of those sins.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I know all that.
            That’s not new. It hasn’t been new for a long time. Conflation, of things that are clinically distinct, from morally distinct, is what is frustrating in these conversations.
            I have some close friends whose experience with their families, has been ultimatums.
            As if their gay family member couldn’t live without either them OR God and Christ.
            Estrangement is preferable. Because God and Christ are NOT tangible.
            But whether your parents or siblings ever speak to you again, IS.
            The incentive to not be shunned, is a powerful one. And Christians and other faith communities know it.
            They don’t call it blackmail, they consider it a healthy and necessary way to treat people.
            Which would be one thing, if gay people had harmed another person.
            But they don’t.
            This is truly about vestiges of the inherent misogyny and taboo on non procreative sex in religious doctrine.
            This is what I’m getting at.
            That misogyny itself is extremely unhealthy, as is a prohibition on birth control, or people that have sex without the intent of children.

          • CCW

            The breaking of fellowship is a last resort and only applicable after other avenues have been exhausted. But you say you are familiar with all that so I’ll assume I’m not telling you something you would’t already know.

            However, unpack what you mean by clinically and morally distinct?

            I’m assuming here so disregard what follows if I’m misunderstanding you. But if by clinically and morally distinct you mean orientation or some such thing and, if so, that somehow settles the issue, it does not. Your establishing a separation that is arbitrary.

            The point of sin is that we are fundamentally oriented to things we should not be. We want and desire things we should not. The presence of a want, desire, attraction – sexual or otherwise – does not make them permissible.

            Most of where the church falls short is because of a failure to understand what sin is. This is why, for example, I never say to anyone dealing with sin to “just stop it.” You can’t “just stop it.” We need the grace of God and the Spirit of God to empower that and a loving and compassionate community of brothers and sister who will walk with us.

            And your assertion of religious taboo on non procreative sex ignores the reality that that is not the biblical portrayal. A reading of Song of Songs is enough to counter that assertion. This is not to say that ascetic influences have not marred the theology of the church; but biblical theology is neither ascetic nor opposed to the enjoyment of life.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Excuse me, but what is known, and factual about homosexuality and gay people is NOT arbitrary. It’s not a belief system, nor capricious assumptions.
            It’s the Bible’s teaching on it that’s arbitrary.

            Which, not incidentally is to not LEARN about it at all, but to deny gay people their humanity within it and make them go away.
            So what I said by clinical distinctions, is that homosexuality has been researched, gay people examined and accorded an openness in society that’s been unprecedented. This has garnered more knowledge and empirical experience than the Bible or other faith doctrines ever allowed.
            Making such doctrine wrong.
            There are distinctions of human behaviors by which the status and addressing of it has been more effective.
            You can’t pray away much of it. There are disciplines that do work, if the object of addiction is taken away. The function of the individual improves.
            But there is no discernible difference in a gay person’s function in society one way or the other, by religious disciplines.
            That is one part of the evidence of the moral neutrality of homosexual behavior.
            any other things categorized as sins, or demons, are not EXCLUSIVE.
            That is yet more evidence.
            The part of Song of Songs you mention, is essentially about limiting one’s pleasures REASONABLY for one’s own and the good of others.
            At least that’s how it’s interpreted most of the time.
            But even there, such limits were more enforced on some people than others.
            But back then, people’s behaviors most of the time were greatly misunderstood and there were no medicines or approaches of different disciplines that are far more effective than religious discipline can help or change.
            And the enjoyment of life, was also limited to the kinds of things children would be limited to.
            Not adults.
            So my point is: this is still the 21st century. Not the first. It’s 5777 in the Hebraic calendar.
            And fortunately a LOT more is known and understood by humanity, than the arbitrary codes of the Bible have set for them.
            So that even the restrictions that have tempered the reactionary stoning factor, aren’t healthy either. Nor workable or the truth.
            What Christians interpret as dismissal of Biblical doctrine, is a matter of human beings knowing a lot more than the Bible has to offer them.
            And sometimes, in the cases of some of the comments here, when a person is at their lowest, or most vulnerable period in their lives, is when Christians have the most influence.
            And not always in a good way.

          • CCW

            Ok, so you’re not a Christian and you don’t claim to follow Christ or believe in things like sin, our need of redemption, etc and to you the bible is arbitrary nonsense….so I don’t expect you to agree with me on this issue but I am confused by your engagement here then.

            The issue at hand, as articulated in the article, is about those who say they are Christian yet don’t follow Christ. They’re not Christian. That’s what the article is saying. They’re walking in what the bible says is sin and doing so in an unrepentant way and you, though not a Christian, are taking issue with the article saying, it’s sin and they’re not Christian.

            Why? Clearly, like yourself, they’re not Christian and if anything the article is just clarifying that reality….which I would assume is good news for someone who thinks the bible is arbitrary hogwash.

            We are told to assess those who claim to be disciples of Jesus while not doing that with those who don’t. I.E. hold those who claim to be Christian to a different standard than those who don’t:

            1 Corinthians 5:12 | 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

            That’s what the article is effectively doing. It mentions nothing about those who don’t claim to be Christian.

            So what skin do you have in this game?

          • It is all about stoking her own ego, so that she can feel superior to anyone who claims the blood of Christ.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I can speak for myself thank you. Another bad habit Christians have.
            I have no need to feel superior, I don’t use God and the Bible as irrefutable objects of debate so that nothing else can be spoken or challenged.
            I don’t use the Bible as an instrument in which to deny the character of another person (especially gay people), in the same way no heterosexual has to endure.
            I’m willing, as a heterosexual person, to place myself in a situation in which I don’t have blanket acceptance and don’t expect it.
            Just as in real life, I’m not accepted unconditionally as a black person or a woman.
            It’s distinguishing that which is my individual character, from using another factor as an excuse to being treated wrongly.
            I see gay people being treated with double standards, just as I’ve seen myself and other people of color confronted with those types of standards.
            I”m not so fragile as you are where I need God and Christ and all their followers to validate who I am, my needs or for them to dictate them to me.
            Such as in your suggestion I take Xanax.
            What I AM about, is not having people like you, restraining the opportunity to know gay people better and unconditionally.
            Because I KNOW what being Christian is all about. And have most of my life.
            It’s not having as much knowledge and experience with gay people that’s more important to me now.

            And I see people like you, matt and the anti gay religious conservatives as a road block to that.

          • A real martyr! ALL HAIL REAGAN! SHE IS GOING TO SET US FREE FROM THE SHACKLES OF RELIGION! AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH HER, YOU ARE A BIGOTED, IGNORANT HOMOPHOBE!

          • Regan DuCasse

            The grown ups are trying to have a conversation. Evidently, you don’t like it when adults do that.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Generalization is a big part of conversations here. Blanket assumptions based on assumptions made by people who wrote 66 (or so we think) books that chronicled their experience, beliefs and the systems of it they were following. Under quite brutal, and controlling systems at that.
            My identity shouldn’t matter. What should, is where the progression of human integration and social justice is going to go.
            These are all extremely important to human beings trusting in each other, and knowing FULLY who each other is.
            If you keep insisting that gay people and their supporters are conspiring to do something nefarious at the expense of your belief system, then you’re making an example of the double standards you present gay people with.
            You want to be listened to and believed, as if you haven’t had THOUSANDS of years and opportunity to do so.
            As if I haven’t had a Christian education my entire life.
            I just don’t wear it on my chest as if it’s a character or spiritual fitness badge.
            It’s wrong to treat people like that, as if only Christian identity matters. And those who haven’t professed it to your satisfaction are deserving of distrust, if not derision.
            YOU are putting words in, I didn’t say. Like hogwash, and nonsense. I haven’t disrespected all of it in that manner and wouldn’t.
            YOU need to learn how to listen to more than the echo chamber.
            There is a lot more going on than you want to handle and the Bible gives you permission to ignore the complexity that’s really going on about THIS subject in particular.

          • CCW

            Look, it’s not an assumption to say you think the bible is arbitrary and non-authoritative. You say as much over and over again.

            The article is saying these folk who say they are followers of Jesus are not because of what Jesus said and has been given to us by God through the biblical witness. Which you’ve already dismissed as authoritative so I’m still not sure what you’re end game here is?

            Understanding? No…because you’re arguing for a view point that you want to convince of us..i.e. the article and those such as myself who ascribe the NT teachings are wrong. You believe we are wrong and want to point that out.

            You think we are archaic, ill-informed, and narrow minded. Have you said that explicitly? No. But come on….you’re here proselytizing and I’d rather you be honest about it than speak through a veil of being sympathetic and understanding or some such nonsense.

            You accuse me of not listening and only living in an echo chamber. So to clarify.

            I hear you. I understand what you are saying. And, you’re wrong.

            See how easy that is.

            Why can’t we have conversations where we don’t accuse the other of not listening etc when that’s not the case and there is actually a divergent and irreconcilable view on something.

            That’s where real conversation can start. And it’s where the conversation about Jesus always starts. So though you criticize me for giving higher value to the Christian identity or some such thing, I accept that accusation as true.

            But not in that I’m better than you or some other kind of thing. I’m as wretched a sinner as they come. Gutter trash that Jesus picked up and claimed as his own. The evil things I’ve done. The despicable things I’ve thought and felt. My sexual sin. My adulterous heart. My lust. My iniquity.

            But Jesus called me to turn from those things and to him and his mercy and grace. We all have our crosses to bear and persistent sins and wayward desires that plague us and there is grace upon grace for those things. But to call what Jesus calls sin, not-sin, is to not follow him and to not say as He did that apart from him you will perish is to not follow him.

            So if you want to talk about Jesus we can do that, because he’s the crux of the whole thing. He claimed to be God. He claimed he was dying for the forgiveness of our sins. He claimed to have the right to call us to abandon anything that he disagreed with and that following him meant taking up a cross daily and pursuing him. And that cross we might bear would include wayward sexual desires. He said that apart from him only the wrath of God for sin remains and that only in him is life to be found as lose our lives for his sake.

            Jesus was pretty clear about those things and they present a view of things that is divergent and irreconcilable and this has been the message of the church for thousands of years as rightly said. Some believe and follow Jesus. Some don’t.

            If you don’t, ok. We can talk about Jesus because if you don’t embrace him I don’t expect you and I to have agreement on this subject and countless others.

            But the article is about those who claim they do follow Jesus; when clearly they do not.

            Why is that a problem?

          • Regan DuCasse

            So you also come from a place of being down, desperate and without somewhere to go?
            Okay then.
            Not all gay people end up there, because they are gay.
            And as for “I hear you, I understand, and you’re wrong”
            Well.
            Tried and done. To get to the conclusion of wrongness, is to look at all the other religious families with a gay person in it. And what happened.
            The blame went on the gay person, not being religious enough. Not having the self restraint to see others all around them pair bonding, but they’d have to put on a grin and accept that it wasn’t for them and THEY’D be wrong to aspire to it.
            See?
            Your way, is NOT NEW.
            It’s been done, as isn’t as workable as you want believed.
            When I witness something isn’t working, and the results aren’t consistent, nor productive, then YOUR claims are the empty ones.
            And blaming a lack of faith, isn’t going to cut it.
            That isn’t selling any more because reality isn’t going away.
            You expect unconditional trust, no matter what gets messed up in the process. Then pretend there hasn’t been anything messed up.

            You demand a lot, more than deserved really.
            All kinds of people have claimed following Christ, but don’t.
            And you expect the lay person in the street to know the difference, and if we don’t, then we must be ignorant?
            Your claims and insistence is out there. It’s all of a piece, according to YOU.
            And if I’m trying to sift through the noise, and get to the heart of it all, I get slammed for it.
            It’s a problem, because Christians make a lot of noise, then act like they are being silenced and no one can hear them, or knows their message.
            You couldn’t care less to what degree someone might actually be more devout and spiritually grounded than you.
            Just in a different way.
            My life sure didn’t spiral out of control the way some people admitted their lives did.
            I partially shared some of the experiences mentioned here.
            But I didn’t and couldn’t blame my sexual orientation for my problems. And maybe THAT is why I am more grounded, even though I’m a part of a minority and a woman in which marginalization has been a risk my entire life.
            I don’t use that either, nor come here to keeping stereotypes about women and/or blacks in play.
            Only homosexuality gets WAY too much attention as a human flaw worthy of eradication.
            But let’s not forget how gender, color and so on got that treatment too.
            So examining the persistence in distrust of homosexuality and all the misrepresentations it gets is important.
            I know why a Christian would think it’s a sin.
            But the excessive attention to it, and the damage from it, is in evidence.
            I don’t make that up. It’s what happens.
            And I have good reason to know why.

          • CCW

            “When I witness something isn’t working, and the results aren’t consistent, nor productive, then YOUR claims are the empty ones.”

            Define working and results. Because as I read the Scriptures me experiencing a life where all my wants and desires are met isn’t articulated. I do find that I’m told sin has distorted me to the core and the fundamental issue with all of us is that we are idolaters trying to find peace, happiness, and joy in all manner of things that don’t provide them. And that following Jesus faithfully will come with some struggles; perhaps even life-long thorns in the flesh that God doesn’t remove for his purposes like Paul experienced.

            So if the “feeling” of happiness or some such thing is the end game that should guide us and that or something similar is what you mean by “working” then we have irreconcilably differing views on the meaning and purpose of life.

            Jesus and the scriptures say the purpose of life is to glorify God. Period. And all men will do that as either vessels of mercy or wrath. And the stories of men such as Joseph and Job and Stephen who was stoned to death and Andrew, the brother of James, who was beheaded or, hell, Jesus himself, who was bludgeoned, whipped, and crucified as a criminal kind of indicate our “happiness” in the world doesn’t rank to high on God’s priority list.

            Now the amazing thing is that when you come to know Christ you can actually go through all that kind of stuff while experiencing joy and peace and contentment because you have Jesus.

            Because again, he’s the crux of the matter. Jesus is worth letting go of EVERYTHING else in this life. He says that whoever keeps his life will lose it but whoever loses their life for his sake will find it. Paul said he counted everything he had to gain in this life – reputation, reward, prestige, comfort, esteem, and whatever else – as rubbish (literally, dung) that he might gain Christ.

            So, I’m not sure who you’re saying is making demands…I’m just telling you what Jesus demands. You don’t want that, OK. But the issue again is those saying the rep Jesus when THEY DON’T – hence, the article.

            And to be blunt; if you haven’t bottomed out and come to a place where you recognize you’re utterly bankrupt spiritually and morally to your very core so that you can only cry out for mercy and throw yourself upon Jesus trusting in his goodness and grace sacrificing anything and everything that doesn’t line up with his will for you; well, you haven’t met Jesus.

            “It’s a problem, because Christians make a lot of noise, then act like they are being silenced and no one can hear them, or knows their message.
            You couldn’t care less to what degree someone might actually be more devout and spiritually grounded than you.
            Just in a different way. ”

            What? I didn’t say that. The article didn’t say that. But please understand that apart from Jesus all talk of spirituality is false. So, there isn’t a different way than Jesus…and again, I’m only saying what Jesus said. For example in statements like: “I’m the way, truth, and life, and noone comes to the Father but through me” and Abide in me, for apart from you can do nothing” and many many more.

            And the obsessive focus of the church on homosexuality. Really? You do realize this is in large part because of revisionist efforts of people like Matthew Vines and others who are making it a focal point for the church in such a way that the church HAS to respond to it? Which actually comes back to the point of the article to begin with about false teachers and such and how to respond etc.

            I mean, the NT has far more to say about things like gossip, slander, and pride…but oddly nobody is campaigning for those to be accepted as not sin and thus I’m not aware of any efforts within the church right now to focus on those things to inform the church and counter false teaching about gossip and slander. It’s kind of a two-way street.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Okay, I’ll define working and results. As I keep saying, it’s only recently, gay people have been able to be more open and honest and integrated without threat.
            Much of that threat has been influenced by people in general being taught not to trust gay people or homosexuality.
            And to see homosexuality as something unwanted, undesirable and wrong to engage in.
            The results of that thinking have been extremely damaging, because it contradicts a profound reality in a person’s life. Especially someone very young who hasn’t yet even in a sexual relationship yet.
            We are our orientation, regardless.
            So, that negative messaging and it IS negative, and contradicts the actual PERSON being negative, this would be confusing and unhelpful, when the treatment of other people in society at large doesn’t require any such disciplines, or restriction and restraint.
            It doesn’t.
            The results have been discrimination, threat of all kinds, and distrust.
            That is not a positive outcome, with regard to how to view homosexuality and gay people.
            As I already said, how can the same behavior accepted and applauded in heterosexuals, be vilified when also achieved by gay people?
            The end game here, is to not have such contradictions in terms, confront people with no more control or choice over their orientation, than heterosexuals do.
            We all come by that orientation the same way.
            But how we are treated because of it, is very different.
            Which is just as confusing as it would be to try to tell someone we are lesser or more than each other because of our gender.
            And this IS about gender, remember. One’s attraction to not just the same gender, but who shares the same orientation.
            It’s a different type, but there is no MORAL difference and never was.
            That definition has been FORCED on us, by other humans. And the threat and punishment exacted by other humans and not God, too.
            The closet, or no other options but to be celibate, and virtually neutered in ordinary life, is NOT a healthy or working result at large.
            Because those coerced into it, at a very young age, are aided and abetted by such as matt, as if to say that closet was a good idea all along, and it’s trying to have a romantic life and fit in there, that’s more desirable.
            Who said that?
            Only those with a vested interest in gay people disappearing.

            Christians demand standards of gay people that aren’t who they are, or should be, nor were meant to be.
            And therefore those who want to know more, and be more informed about gay people WITHOUT the religious influence forcing it’s way in, have it so hard to have THAT choice.
            Of course, people who don’t challenge the authority over them, or who demand to have that authority, would prefer not to have anything they say challenged.
            Gossip and slander has negative, damaging results.
            You can’t in all honesty, say that homosexuality, on it’s own is in that category either.
            Even if a gay person is lucky enough to find a person to journey through life with successfully.
            If you say that in Christianity, this is still bad, that’s why the church is losing on this.
            People are seeing for themselves who to believe and it’s not this kind of Christianity.
            And rightly.
            Because it’s hard to demonstrate that one is a healthy, and happy, celibate gay person, when a small and innocent gesture is suspicious.
            That’s not just a warped idea of casual affection. But what the definition of sex, and affection and sexuality is also.
            When you argue that gender IS a morality issue, or that sexual orientation isn’t a choice or just the ONE orientation is the negative one, then you’ve lost that debate because reality simply contradicts it.

            You skated RIGHT past the FACT, that religious conservatives were fighting to ensure that gay people couldn’t marry.
            While archaic laws on the books that endanger adolescent girls, were NOT attacked, or changed or challenged.
            But you were quick to equivocate homosexuality at one time in history, with pederasty.
            But pederasty isn’t about just boys.
            See, this is why you can’t be trusted to be morally and intellectually honest when it comes to reality.
            About civil law, and the targets of discrimination and so on.
            There was a moment in such very recent history when some very powerful and influential Christians could have worked to overturn the laws I’m talking about.
            I question why they didn’t.
            But YOU don’t.
            Someone like me, experienced in law enforcement, with statistical information about how exploited those laws are, fell on the same deaf ears I’m seeing here now.
            History will remember your priorities, even if you don’t.
            Which is why, looking SO far back, while real time is passing you by, seems like a spiritual journey to avoid the real issues, instead of confronting them.
            Some things you don’t have to say explicitly. They are implied just as much as if you did.

          • CCW

            “Much of that threat has been influenced by people in general being taught not to trust gay people or homosexuality. And to see homosexuality as something unwanted, undesirable and wrong to engage in.”

            I would agree with you that to single homosexuals out as somehow being worse than anybody else is wrong. From the Christian viewpoint it is a fundamental failure to understand the reality of sin. However, it is a sin and to say otherwise is to misrepresent Jesus and the Scriptures.

            But you’ve already stated you don’t find Scriptures to be authoritative and as I’ve stated repeatedly this article is about those who claim to follow Jesus but are not because they are engaging in things that Jesus declares sinful and teaching others that what Jesus calls sin isn’t really sin.

            Why does that bother you for us to say that they are not Christian?

            “We are our orientation, regardless. So, that negative messaging and it IS negative, and contradicts the actual PERSON being negative, this would be confusing and unhelpful, when the treatment of other people in society at large doesn’t require any such disciplines, or restriction and restraint.”

            I strongly disagree with this statement. We are not our sexual desires. What you are doing here is elevating sexual desire to a place of prominence so that that more than anything else defines what it means to be a human being. This is an idolatrous error that reduces humanity down to our sexual impulses and much else that you say flows from this erroneous assumption.

            It’s also why you assume that if a desire is present and can’t be acted upon then somehow that person’s life is diminished.

            I have, as we all do, desires that should and must be repressed. There is no contradiction or inconsistency here.

            This is because we are not our desires. Our desires, twisted by sin as they are, are actually a distortion of who we are. The consistent message of the Bible is that we are made in God’s image and that is the fundamental and foundational source of our identity. Sin has marred that image and distorted it.

            The call to repentance and to turn from sin is a call to be who we were truly created to be. Every single person thus has desires that are not in accordance with our true nature. Homosexuality is not treated any differently than any other sin in the Bible.

            We are commanded to turn from all sin to God in faith finding our identity in him and in his mercy and grace recognizing that I am not my desire, sexual or otherwise, I am not my sin, sexual or otherwise, but I am who God declares me to be: a man or woman made in his image, marred by sin, yet forgiven in Christ, now walking towards the restoration of that distorted image by the power of his mercy and grace.

            “You skated RIGHT past the FACT, that religious conservatives were fighting to ensure that gay people couldn’t marry.”

            No I didn’t. But to clarify so you know my position on this. Why would they seek to establish laws that prevent same sex marriage? Because they should. It’s not marriage and it’s sinful. Why would any conscientious Christian vote to support laws they find immoral? Do you support laws you believe to be immoral? Then don’t expect me to. Two way street here.

            “While archaic laws on the books that endanger adolescent girls, were NOT attacked, or changed or challenged. But you were quick to equivocate homosexuality at one time in history, with pederasty. But pederasty isn’t about just boys. See, this is why you can’t be trusted to be morally and intellectually honest when it comes to reality. About civil law, and the targets of discrimination and so on. There was a moment in such very recent history when some very powerful and influential Christians could have worked to overturn the laws I’m talking about. I question why they didn’t. But YOU don’t. Someone like me, experienced in law enforcement, with statistical information about how exploited those laws are, fell on the same deaf ears I’m seeing here now.

            Not sure what you’re talking about here with laws about adolescent girls. Perhaps I missed another post?

            But I did not equivocate homosexuality with pederasty. You said there’s an openness culturally that is unprecedented with regard to homosexuality. That is patently false.

            I brought up the Greco-Roman culture because IT WAS FAR MORE EMBRACING OF THINGS SEXUALLY than even our culture is today. I mentioned pederasty because that was accepted then though we would call it pedophilia. It’s a point of reference that proves they were far more accepting of things than our culture. I could have also mentioned orgies, prostitution, and other things. My point there was that your assertion of a more sexually accepting culture that is historically unprecedented is utterly and completely false. Those things, including pederasty, were stamped out by the growth of the church…so oddly, in an ironic twist, the Christian sexual ethic is actually the newest around and the stuff we are seeing today is a return to pre-Christian pagan sexual ethics.

            Regardless, the fundamental error you are making is elevating sexual desire so that it’s the defining mark of a person which is the error of our age.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I have not misrepresented the Scriptures, nor care to.
            I will not however, misrepresent science, empirical experience and the human progress in those endeavors towards better understanding and integration of gay people as fully self determined human beings.
            I did not say we were our sexual DESIRES.
            But our sexual ORIENTATION.
            And it’s true, we will be hetero, homosexual, bisexual or asexual whether an active or romantic sex life is there.

            However, no medical or psychiatric peer group worthy of their credentials, agrees that repression of sexuality is healthy, nor desirable when engineered by societal pressure, misrepresentation and lies about morality and it’s benefits for all of us.
            Not just some.
            Asexual people have NO desire for sex, and there are gender based variations within that orientation on attraction. That is to say, that they are limited in their sexual desires, but not their attraction whether to the opposite sex, or the same sex.
            Get the picture?
            So it would be just as cruel, and have no value to tell an asexual person, that they are worthless and threatening to others and society itself, because they have no desire for sex.
            And it would serve nothing but cruelty, by the same pressure exacted on gay people, for asexual people to marry or have sex against their own natures.
            There is nothing wrong with them, they are still capable of making a contribution, whether actively sexual or not.
            But it serves individual happiness and well being, when each person has the freedom to be with who they share the same orientation with.
            Without judgement, discrimination or threat to that well being.

            Over and over again, homosexuals are singled out with the mistaken expectation that repression of their orientation is healthy and preferred.
            Well, not by gay people themselves.
            It’s heterosexuals who have dictated that, and it’s been extremely harmful and done more to destroy families and individuals trust.
            I point again, the definition of religious sins, as opposed to moral sins.
            Religious sins, have been released from the category of harmful because it’s allowed for human progress and well being.
            Moral sins, have NEVER changed. Not in their application, result or harm to individual and social trust and well being.
            Those moral sins being rape, murder, theft, assault, adultery and addiction.
            And the world has experienced great conflict because of Christianity advancing across the world.
            Homosexuality, has not been something in which there is investing in changing people from heterosexual to gay, on condition of threat and dominance.
            Gay people are members of whatever culture, nation and family they are born to.
            No Christian can say that.
            Christian influence hasn’t been all hearts and coronets.
            It’s been brutal to a lot of people, in fact.
            And what’s been defined as sin, has been conflated, and mixed in with other human behavioral factors wrongly, unfairly and unjustly.
            So that gay people have been categorized wrongly, unfairly and unjustly.
            So what Christians teach, is all over the place and without giving anyone interested in knowing more about orientation in general and gay people in particular a chance.

            The fire and brimstone bit, isn’t going to cut it.
            Neither is inconsistent ways in which to sneak in discrimination, but without equal application for ALL who qualify against Biblical sexual morality.
            When Christians themselves are a crazy quilt, and lacking in commitment to just plain treating another as they’d be treated, then rightfully you get called out on just how schizophrenic you apply religion to everyone but yourselves as individuals.
            And apply much stricter religious doctrine to gay people is an example of that.
            This religious doctrine IS an extension of misogyny and taboos on non procreative sex.
            And homosexuality is strictly a gender based difference and ALL else IS equal.
            Gender is NOT an issue of morality. So which gender you’re attracted to isn’t a sin, because gender isn’t.
            Now the kind of sexual morality in which monogamy, responsibility, commitment, love and devotion is channeled works JUST as well for gay people, as it would for heterosexuals.
            But judging gay people from the legacy of discrimination and social isolation that denied them this option, is like judging the racism on blacks in America as if there were never a system of discrimination against them either.

            Obviously because of the harsh treatment against women and people of color, in this country and elsewhere, biological legitimacy is no protection against bigotry and systems of law meant to punish and harm you.
            So no gay person should have to debate, argue or defend THEIR biological legitimacy to escape such discrimination.
            And neither should they be encouraged/ or forced to do so through religious doctrine either.

          • CCW

            Fine, orientation does not define us. God does. The imago dei does. We have marred that with sin.

            First, there is no conclusive scientific evidence in support of this idea of innate orientation. In fact studies indicate there is a fluidity to it that is determined by desire, experience, circumstance, and some interaction of those various things.

            Second, even granting there might be an inclination in a particular direction doesn’t change anything. We are marred by sin. Our desires are warped and twisted. If the existence of a desire or orientation is enough to morally justify them then there is nothing wrong with a polygamists desires. Now acting on them might be, but the desires themselves are not right/wrong or good/bad. They just are how they are biologically wired.The same must be said for EVERY sexual orientation and desire.

            In any case, the issue at hand is that God declares it to be sin but you’ve clearly indicated you’ve already rejected Christ – so this conversation is pointless.

            If you want to talk more we can talk about Jesus. He died for you and for your sins – including the blasphemy and various other sins you’ve espoused in this thread. He bids you to turn from those and to him for the mercy you need.

            If you’re not interested in Jesus then we can go no further.

          • Regan DuCasse

            CCW, I already know about Jesus. No need to ask you or study about Jesus.
            But I’m going to ask you: why do you keep up the fiction that a person that accepts homosexuality as a variance on gender attraction, ‘must’ also accept polygamy or incest?
            Why do you insist on projecting this on someone like me, who does NOT have to accept polygamy or incest.
            Because I can and do discern the differences between how people are TREATED, as opposed to how they are, regardless of their orientation.
            This is the moral imperative DO distinguish some things from others. When you don’t do that, and mash them up into an amorphous stew, it’s not someone like me that accepts ALL kinds of sexual activity between people.Sexual orientation IS distinguishable from sexual activity.
            What’s acceptable within sexual activity, benefits gay people the same as it does heterosexual people.
            The same things that harm heterosexual people, harms gay people as well.
            To NOT make this moral distinction, is for YOU to be the one uninterested in encouraging the same moral, and acceptable principles for both gay people and hetero people alike.
            That means, double standards are unacceptable, period.
            For anyone.
            Christian who pick and choose what they accept for themselves, but have rigid ideas about gay people is a double standard by a CHOSEN lifestyle.
            Being gay isn’t chosen, being religious is.
            Again, different and double standards enforced against gay people.
            Meaning, you’re NOT interested in treating another as you’d be treated.
            Because you wouldn’t accept what you charge gay people to do for yourself or other heterosexuals.
            The hets would tell you where to stick it, and you know that.
            Keep confronting anyone with double standards, you’ll be called out on it, and rightfully.

          • CCW

            If you know about Jesus then you know why I say sex is to be between a man and woman under the covenant of marriage being joined as one as intended and designed by God. His purpose for this was to point to the reality of the union of Christ with his bride, the church, as one. As such, human sexuality is not merely a biological phenomenon but an extension of the imago dei and thus a central issue.

            A homosexual union is the union of sameness and falsely images Jesus’ union with his bride which is a union of opposites in that it is the union of creator with created. It is sin because it is distortion of the imago dei.

            “But I’m going to ask you: why do you keep up the fiction that a person that accepts homosexuality as a variance on gender attraction, ‘must’ also accept polygamy or incest?
            Why do you insist on projecting this on someone like me, who does NOT have to accept polygamy or incest.”

            Because you keep arguing that the existence of orientation justifies that particular kind of sexual expression. Be consistent. For the argument you use to say homosexuality is permissible is just as viable an argument for the others. If it isn’t, then your argument crumbles.

            And wait a second.

            Though I’m not telling you that you have to accept polygamy or poly amorous arrangements or incest or pedophilia, you do realize there are groups out there that are working for the acceptance of those things?

            If they would be wrong to tell you that you must accept their sexual preference and expression because that’s their orientation then why are you not also wrong to tell me I must accept homosexuality as an appropriate form of sexual expression/preference?

            Again, you are drawing arbitrary boundaries around what is acceptable sexual desire and expression and evidence of that is that you refuse to apply your rationale consistently.

            And you have failed to adequately justify your accusation of double standards. As I’ve said repeatedly; sin is sin and all sin is to be repented of. No double standard there. No special treatment. If Jesus calls it sin we are to turn from it. Period.

            And if your interest in Jesus only goes so far as what you mentioned, then no, your not interested in Jesus. He claimed to be God incarnate coming to convict the world of sin and righteousness offering himself up for the forgiveness of sin and that he will be the one who either pardons or judges us. Jesus was not a nice man who just came to tell everyone to be nice to each other. He came calling sinners to repentance and faith and obedience to him.

          • Regan DuCasse

            “Because you keep arguing that the existence of orientation, justifies that particular form of sexual expression.”
            You’re a liar. At no time did I EVER say anything to justify polygamy or incest.
            To support homosexuality and expression with in it, has nothing to do with either.
            “For the argument you use to say homosexuality is permissible, is just as viable an argument for the others.”

            You’re putting words in I haven’t and wouldn’t say. And you’re setting up a straw man.
            It’s already been explained why incest and polygamy aren’t permissible, and it’s disingenuous on your part to continue to conflate them as if they have ANY similarity whatsoever.
            And saying it’s disingenuous of you, is putting it mildly. It’s actually manipulative.
            Yes, I’m aware there are some people trying to make such a thing acceptable.
            I’ll explain it to you again.
            Sexual orientation has only four simple definite types.
            Polygamy and incest are social constructs, not orientations.
            The reason why, is polygamy assumes that one man has several wives, in most polygamous cultures, this is done without the consent, of the other wives. It’s entirely the man’s choice to engage in this.
            Incest, because of the many configurations that make a family, would set up family members for sexual interest, also making consent not much of an option since such an arrangement can begin very early, and take on complexities that can’t protect the individual.

            The one spouse standard, is to make non related people primary kin. Those already married or closely related, are recognized as family, making marriage to achieve that status redundant.
            I just explained to you, the nature of sexual orientation as it’s defined by heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality in it’s order of the level it occurs. Asexuality being the rarest.
            I pointed out specifically, that sexual orientation isn’t about sexual ACTIVITY.
            But gender based orientation, with regard to correspondent, mutual attraction.
            These cannot be confused with paraphilias, or pathology, which involves non correspondent, non mutual attraction.
            This is why the moral imperative to correctly define such behaviors and characteristics.
            Homosexuality is exclusive to gay people.
            Paraphilias and pathology has no exclusivity on the basis of orientation or gender. They are entirely separate.
            These are not arbitrary boundaries, but the clinical, social and essential facts that delineate harmful behaviors from those that are benign.

            I have not failed to describe the double standards, you just choose to ignore them.
            Because since gay people can achieve and do, what is acceptable for heterosexuals to do, than that means that both can achieve the same goals, want to and can cooperate in that endeavor.
            YOU are the one that has no justification for gay people to be kept from such ACCEPTABLE endeavors.
            Gay people can’t marry more than one spouse or engage in incest any more than heterosexuals can.
            And in professional and skill tested arenas, gay people can achieve success also.
            Being in a relationship, and being married, isn’t skill tested by the gov’t. And the religious are not allowed to require or enforce such things in people who don’t choose to be in that religion.
            But gaming religion on the unwilling in a manipulative manner is unseemly for anyone.

            You’re right, Jesus was NOT a nice man. He was also a man of his time. He might have been insightful, and charismatic, even of immense ego to assume to tell the masses that he was the son of God.
            Manifest in ways in which the agent of the Romans, Pontious Pilate was going to test his mass appeal.
            The masses were given the choice between Jesus and a n’ere do well, Barrabus.
            And the masses let their preference be known.

            Being Jewish, and under the occupation of the Romans, formerly enslaved by Egyptians, the Jews had a lot to feel insecure about. Many left without much hope of ever getting out from under the rule of Romans.
            Thousands of Jews killed themselves at Masada (an absolute no no) rather than be enslaved all over again. A stand off that lasted years.
            Jesus had to so something, and pretty much elected himself to inspire and corral his brethren, into some kind of unified group, so that their spiritual heritage wouldn’t be lost.
            The Jews have been diasporic for a long time. They’ve needed a central leadership so as not to further have no roots, or wings.
            The sins of the world, on the shoulders of Christ, is a metaphor for what happens when men of essential peace, have a weary tribe to inspire, but a determined system of oppression to fight also.
            He’s not the only one. He was not the last.

            But let’s for a moment just allow for the fact that our culture and nation, has learned a lot more about different human beings than even Christ experienced.
            We have the concept of innocent until proven guilty as part of our judicial process, because the religious belief in Original Sin and perpetual guilt, does not allow for investigation or individuals to defend themselves.
            So that had to change.
            Much has been learned about gay people since Christ’s time.
            Are you going to argue that such knowledge doesn’t exist, or doesn’t deserve the light of examination?
            Are you truly going to have anyone believe that so much that’s different, and important to human progress and interaction, hasn’t been learned since the Bible?

            You’re insisting on having me believe something, that’s very ancient media.
            And disallow all that has been learned about human nature in a scientific and clinically ACCURATE way?

            Hence, another example of double standards. You expect gay people to live under ancient standards of application to their lives.
            While no heterosexual is subject to that on condition they not have the full freedoms and protections only his birth need allow when it comes to the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
            I have told you, over and over again, Christ’s life intentions for his tribe, and what the Bible says, isn’t new. I know what it says, and it’ll say the same thing years from now.
            I want to learn something MORE, something different about people who have yet to be fully revealed and fully self determined.
            And everyone deserves to know this, as much as we’ve learned how men learned to fly, and send objects into space to record the universe.
            It’s still just us folks here. And the more we learn about each other, the more we might just have a common good to achieve.
            And so far, your way of seeing things doesn’t seem to want to allow to learn more.
            As if all you think you need to know, or ever will about gay people in particular, is in the Bible.
            And I’m telling you, it’s obvious it’s not.

            And Matt and his gay supporters, are examples of gay folks, who aren’t going to do the kind of teaching that’s actually needed.
            Take a breather. You can come back at another time, to continue to say the same things over and over again. And be manipulative, even controlling and abusive when you feel like it.
            But the world doesn’t have to keep hearing the same tune.
            Humanity itself has been hungry for more, since all those holy books were written.

          • CCW

            “You’re a liar. At no time did I EVER say anything to justify polygamy or incest.
            To support homosexuality and expression with in it, has nothing to do with either.”

            You are totally misunderstanding me. CAPS are simply for emphasis.

            YOU HAVE SAID the existence of same sex orientation justifies it AND THEREFORE it must be accepted.

            I SAID the same form of argument and rationale can be used to support polyamory and other forms of non binary and or monogamous sexual orientations and attractions.

            PLEASE NOTE the emphasis on what YOU AND I HAVE SAID so you can stop accusing me of being a liar and manipulative.

            It is not a straw man nor does it conflate them as the same kind of thing to say your rationale can be used in the same way to justify those other forms of sexual expression, as that is exactly what some people are doing. So stop saying I’m conflating or equating the various forms of sexual variance and drop the ad hominem.

            They ARE DIFFERENT but the SAME FORM OF ARGUMENT you employ for homosexuality CAN BE USED to justify the others.

            “Because since gay people can achieve and do, what is acceptable for heterosexuals to do, than that means that both can achieve the same goals, want to and can cooperate in that endeavor.
            YOU are the one that has no justification for gay people to be kept from such ACCEPTABLE endeavors.
            Gay people can’t marry more than one spouse or engage in incest any more than heterosexuals can.”

            But they are not the same. A man and woman together IS NOT the same thing as a man and a man or a woman and a woman together. For all your emphasis on science you just simply brush over and ignore the most basic of biological and empirical distinctions with regard to sex and sexuality.

            But you have to obscure the obvious in order to construct your position and you do that by making sex and sexuality an internal psychological thing for homosexuality. But that that doesn’t apply for the other varying forms of sexual attraction and orientation? Right.

            Lastly, Masada was after Jesus’ ministry. The church was already getting started at that point.

            But to come back to the crux of the matter. You reject Jesus. I and others do not. We seek to follow him. This article is about those who claim to follow Jesus but clearly do not. That’s what the article is addressing. The author is saying that he loves Jesus, this is what Jesus asks of us, and those who are saying otherwise are misrepresenting Jesus.

            Why is that a problem for you? Why are you here proselytizing?

            Perhaps be more clear about what you want from people such as myself which is essentially to stop believing in and following Jesus.

            You want to debate dialogue converse; I’m down. As are many of my brothers and sisters in Christ. We welcome the opportunity to talk about things with those who disagree. But when we engage you and push back on what you are telling us to believe we are manipulative controlling and abusive. Ooookay….

            So for that reason I’m out. I don’t know what the reason for the accusation is. Maybe you’ve been hurt by someone. But it wasn’t me and I’m left to assume there is some kind of transference happening here that can’t be worked out over this medium so I’m bowing out. You can respond, I’ll read it, but I won’t be responding further.

            Blessings.

          • Regan DuCasse

            And I just told you WHY that rationale CANNOT be used to justify polyamory or incest or pedophilia.
            Because they are distinctly different from orientation. They also involve relational STATUS.
            And you keep saying yes it’s a rationale, and I have to repeat myself and give you exactly the reason why not.
            And there is no widespread or popular idea that these happen exactly for the reasons I just gave.
            YOU keep bringing it up.
            And you keep telling me to know Jesus.

            Again with repetition, and demanding something that’s not your call to, let alone necessary.
            And you keep acting like I never heard about Jesus or don’t know….
            Why do you keep behaving as if this is something I wouldn’t know about?
            THAT is the bigger problem here.
            You claim I’m obscuring the obvious.
            I’ve never said that the male/female model you keep talking about wasn’t normal or desirable.
            It’s just not the ONLY model.
            That is what should be obvious to YOU.
            You keep assuming there is ONE normal and only between a man and woman.
            When there are MORE than one. And between gay people it’s normal and of value.
            As is that between people who NEVER have sex (asexual), their lives and how they express affection is valuable and normal as well.
            There is no ONE path to anything and there are many different ways to complete each other that has nothing to do with sex.
            Some cultures value the variation in gender that gay and trans people represent, because it completes the entire of the human race’s gender balance.
            Otherwise, and you NEVER answered, why females are one of the most violated members of humanity.

            So of course you don’t really want to have a discussion, because repetition of something a person already knows, isn’t a discussion.
            It’s a sermon.
            And you don’t know nearly as much about gay people as you should know.
            As I keep saying, I KNOW your side.
            I know it VERY well.
            It’s the other side of it that YOUR ignorance shows.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I’m interested in Jesus as far as I see a Christian treating another as they’d be treated, and loving God.
            Those were the ethical instructions from Christ, because it’s from where the most ethical treatment of others would flow.
            Once you fail to do that, you fail Christ, you fail other people.
            So read below.

          • P0xi

            You are seriously a deranged cultist.
            I’m surprised you can make such eloquent words, but reading through it, you have just the tiniest grasp of logic and reason.

            Talking to you is actually like talking to an evolved ape who joined a cult.

          • CCW

            I stand corrected by you and ashamed of myself. I am awed that a person as wise and intelligent as you would condescend to talk with an evolved ape such as much self.

            There, now you’ve got your kudos for putting me in my place and you can go away.

          • P0xi

            Dohoho, it’s about time you give me the respect I deserve.

            Yes, it is hard to talk with a cultist.
            Can you imagine what it must be like to have lived in Colonial times, and then met a native from another land? They might pretend to drink blood, or have all sorts of strange laws, supported by text from an ancient book.

            Heheh, see what I’m getting at?

            The reason I have to treat you as if you were mentally retarded is because you are an adult who has fallen into a cult. How stupid do you have to be to believe in supernatural nonsense in the year 2016?

            This isn’t 1500 or something. You’re in a dumbass religious cult, and you are too stupid to grasp that. I’m proud that you were able to understand reading and writing, but it’s not enough.

            You need to recognize a spook when you see it.
            Your god ain’t real, kid, and your entire religious cult is seriously starting to piss me off. I read that whole fiasco with Reuben or whoever.

            You Christians sure seem brainwashed to be cruel to people who express non-approved opinions. Your low-level desire to worship an authority, especially a magical one, is seriously fucked up.

            Again, I don’t say this as an insult, but you are stupid.
            You are a stupid person for being in a cult, when it is clear that the Bible and the Christian religion is objectively wrong.

            Can’t you read page 1 of your Bible and see a lie when you see it?
            Page 1 of the Bible is objectively wrong.

            The rest is even more nutty, however, so if you believe that shit, you’re an idiot. But yes, I’ll grant you personhood in my own mind if you were to leave this cult. Don’t just join another one, of course.

            If you’re in a cult, you don’t think for yourself. Instead, you are told to obey and believe. What a fucking idiot you must be. Sheesh.

            And please don’t quote some bible verse at me. Do you seriously think I’m going going to do anything other than spit at it?

            “durrr, here’s a verse from the islamic quran, go ahead and believe it derp derp derp” is what you sound like to me when you quote your cult mythology.

            Man, I expect absolutely nothing from this conversation. You are seriously too stupid of a person to even grasp half the stuff I’m saying here. Seriously, if you can rephrase everything I’m saying, I’ll believe you’re not a total moron.

            But still, if you’re in a cult, there’s only one conclusion I can think of.

          • CCW

            Hahaha! Well this is fun so I’ll play.

            For the sake of argument, I’ll assume God doesn’t exist and we can try to arrive at what can reasonably be talked about and argued for that is consistent with that assertion. Not even gonna bring the bible into this! I know, holy shit! A religious nut who isn’t quote the bible at you?!?

            So, we live in a material universe governed by physical causes because there is nothing that exists outside of this closed system. Thus, everything in the human experience from consciousness, to feelings, to logic, to morals are merely the consequent of some antecedent physical cause.

            Do you agree?

            Well, you kind of have to as it’s the only way to be consistent.

            But if all those things (consciousness, feelings, logic, morals) are merely the consequent of some prior cause then they are not actually what we functionally assume them to be. Everyone – you, me – everyone from the monotheist to the atheist to the polytheist are believing, thinking, and feeling what they were determined to think and feel by the long chain of physical events leading back to the big bang that put all this matter in motion.

            For, that is all we are. Matter in motion. Bags of goo floating around on rocks in meaningless universe without purpose or end and all our thoughts, and feelings, and reasonings are just noise of no more significance or value than the sound of two pieces of tin clanging together.

            But don’t take my word for it. Take Bertrand Russel’s

            “That Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins–all these things, if not quite beyound dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.” – Bertrand Russell

            “The first dogma which I came to disbelieve was that of free will. It seemed to me that all notions of matter were determined by the laws of dynamics and could not therefore be influenced by human wills.” – Bertrand Russell

            Or Voltaire

            “Everything happens through immutable laws, …everything is necessary… There are, some persons say, some events which are necessary and others which are not. It would be very comic that one part of the world was arranged, and the other were not; that one part of what happens had to happen and that another part of what happens did not have to happen. If one looks closely at it, one sees that the doctrine contrary to that of destiny is absurd; but there are many people destined to reason badly; others not to reason at all others to persecute those who reason.”

            Or, Max Planck

            “The assumption of an absolute determinism is the essential foundation of every scientific inquiry.”

            And in the area of morals we must always concede to Nietzsche who rightly saw through the mirage of morality in a material godless universe,

            “When people actually believe that they know “intuitively” what is good and evil, when they therefore suppose that they no longer require [theism] as the guarantee of morality, we merely witness the effects of the dominion of the [theistic] value judgment and an expression of the strength and depth of this dominion: such that the origin of morality has been forgotten, such that the very conditional character of its right to existence is no longer felt.”

            “Suspicious.– To admit a belief merely because it is a custom – but that means to be dishonest, cowardly, lazy! – And so could dishonesty, cowardice and laziness be the preconditions for morality?”

            So, what are we left with. What can be argued for? What position can be taken? What high ground is left to strive for and call other men to?

            Absolutely none.

            Your words and my words are meaningless. Your argument and my argument – just noise.

            I know, you want to tell me I’m wrong and that what I’m saying isn’t true. You want to tell me that your thoughts and feelings and reasonings do matter! You want to say, “I’m right and your wrong.” But stop. Just let it pass. You’re just having a brain fart.

            Sure, you think you’re thinking…but your just saying and feeling what your brain chemistry is telling you to. That’s it. So let it go. There’s no point.

            Argument for or against something only makes sense in a world that has meaning and purpose. But we’ve all forsaken stupid infantile notions and fantasies like that, right?

            So, before you seek to form some kind of rebuttal and have another brain fart or assume some position of moral superiority, explain to me first how such things like logic, emotion, and morals are consistent with the fact we live in a meaningless world governed by physical laws of cause and effect?

          • P0xi

            >explain to me first how such things like logic, emotion, and morals are
            consistent with the fact we live in a meaningless world governed by
            physical laws of cause and effect?

            Logic is a spook. Morals are a spook. Emotions are a spook.
            Spook is a term coined by Max Stirner, who recognized that certain things that humans think of as real, are not actually real.
            Government, for instance. Can you “touch” a government? No. There are people who claim to be part of government, but to something like a raccoon, government most certainly does not exist.
            Nor does it exist to me. I see people as people, not as government.

            Same with society. I don’t see society as an entity. I see each person in society as an individual.
            Of course, I could go further and say the “person” is a spook. The concept of “personhood” is not actually real.
            Humans are real though, right?

            Well, only if you think of humans as being composed of many different cells.

            Each cell is composed of many different molecules.
            Each molecule is composed of many atoms.
            And around an atom, orbit sub-atomic particles, and I’m not gonna bother going further, because I’m not trained in this field.

            But you do get the point, right?

            It goes upwards too.

            Many humans form a species. Many species forms an ecosystem.
            Ecosystems form a world, a world is a planet.
            Many planetts around many stars.
            Many stars around many galaxies.
            Many galaxies in this universe.

            And it could likely go infinitely deeper in both directions, but there is no way to know.

            Have you heard of this concept before? I’m not actually trying to debate right now.

            I don’t think debate is useful. The most effective way to convince someone of something is to simply brainwash them, or to teach it to them while they’re young.
            That’s why governments force children to go to school, so that they become either democrats or republicans, and not anything else, because anything else would be dangerous to their system. Same with religious people. Imagine if the church made it ok to openly question their god. Heheh, they’re supposed to kill you, I hear. That’s what they do in Islam, at least. Don’t question anything. No sexual immorality. No fun EVER. That’s how they do it, and they’re still based on the same root religion that your religion is based on.

            Beyond that, surely there is a problem with WANTING a master or tyrant to rule over you.

            Or is there?

            To me, a person who lives in this society of evolved animals, in which there are no gods, you look completely insane.

            I guess to a religious person, you actually WANT an authority to tell
            you how to live. Is that how you feel? You want to be told what to do?
            You want to have a clear path in life, and feel like as long as you’re
            on it, you’re safe, and you’ll get to live forever in some paradise
            dream-state?

            You cultists look completely insane to me. There’s no inherent meaning to the universe, so you make it up.

            And you don’t just choose something like “Love friends, love family, do good work, and have a good, peaceful life.”

            You join a cult. A cult that’s so incredibly hostile to people that I watched a bunch of you guys on this blog totally tear up a person who was obviously well-meaning.

            A lot of you Christians seemed so incredibly close minded, it was almost to the point of absurdity. I mean, surely you see the madness in just quoting bible verse after bible verse at someone who’s actually trying to have a discussion.
            You might be smarter than some, so maybe I can get through to you. Maybe. But if you look around at your fellow Christians, what do you see? Be honest with yourself. Do you see a bunch of zombies in pews, worshiping some invisible thing while paying forth a tithe and listening carefully to their human priest? God doesn’t talk in church, you know. A human does, and that human collects your money too. A human wrote the Bible as well, so this whole thing seems really sketchy to me. I’m not even that smart of a person, but I see that clear as day. Don’t you?

            But you’re right about before. Emotions don’t mean a thing. Morals aren’t real. Logic is subjective.
            Why aren’t morals real? Because rabbits rape each other to breed. Wolves eat tiny baby bunnies and don’t even care. Humans have wars, and oppress each other, and even make up cults, either to answer questions in a primitive fashion, or to just subjugate and enslave each other.

            I’m sure you’ve heard of it: Check out “Greek Mythos”. Yes, before Christianity, people invented other gods and supernatural characters and believed in them just like you believe.

            They are wrong, just as you are wrong.

            Do you think they call it the “cold, hard truth” for no reason?

            The truth is cold and hard. There is no inherent meaning to life.
            The universe is deterministic. Humans are evolved animals with no purpose but to eat and breed in order to fulfill their instincts.
            That’s why humans live the same life as animals. Just as animals eat, shit, piss, fuck, live, and die, humans also do those things.

            Seriously, get it through your head: The truth is not going to be “unending paradise simulator” after you die.
            The truth is not going to be “Everyone gets a personal savior to help them when times are tough”.
            The truth isn’t going to be “And then there was a miracle, and the starving children found lots of food, and a stable job in Africa.”

            The truth is that there is no god, there is no heaven, there is no hell, there aren’t any little demons going around trying to trick you.
            Except maybe cultists who want to convert everyone to their literal dooms-day pyramid scheme cult.

            I mean, “obey and get a reward, disobey and get punished”. How thick can you be with that sort of dogma? And then you look at the actual book itself.
            It reads just like mythology. I mean, it doesn’t even seem profound. It seems like ancient mythology, from page 1 to the end.

            Especially the part about that multiheaded dragon. I mean, that’s in your religion, and you’re ok with that?
            This is why I openly call you a moron. I really don’t want to be mean, seriously. But you are literally moronic if you are going to tell me that there is a useful symbol in that, or worse, that it’s actually something you literally believe. Tip: Dragons are not real. Dinosaurs are, but they only had one head, unless something went very wrong in their egg.

            But honestly, I’ll go back to page 1: Genesis: Because it doesn’t follow the actual order the universe was formed in, it’s completely fabricated, and has no truth or use.
            It is completely made up, and has absolutely no basis in reality at all. Why would I believe a book that on page 1, is wrong? It’s not even symbolically correct. No matter how I tried to get it to fit reality, it just didn’t work. It’s completely made up, and that sort of thing is quite obvious.

            Why would I join a religion where the members are so incredibly hostile to anyone that doesn’t believe, or anyone who commits petty, unimportant “sins” like being gay?
            I mean, if your religion was helping to curb child rape or murder, that’d be cool, but don’t you and Muslims have a little feud that ends up causing huge world wars?
            Even now, Trump is rallying Christians who all seem to be the forerunners of literal nazis.

            Yes, nazis, just like the German Nazis of WWII who were also Christian, just like you.
            I’m not saying Christians are nazis though. I’m saying that Christian doctrine is perfectly compatible with nazi doctrine. Funny, isn’t it, that nazis hate the same things Christians hate?
            But that sort of moralistic argument doesn’t mean a thing to me, at least. It should be troublesome to you, to have to accept the fact that if you believe the Bible 100%, you are basically an insane nazi who must now go on a holocaust crusade and kill nearly everyone.

            But still, the truly important part is finding meaning in a meaningless universe.

            What does it matter if we are deterministic animals, and our fate is already decided? The fate is still unknown, so this life is still an adventure to me. Solved.

            What matters is what matters to me. Right? With the assumption that death is forever, I can’t waste this life doing pointless things. I’ve got one life under this idea of atheism, and it means I can’t waste it judging people using ancient books of myths. It means I can’t go to church on sunday and give away my money. I help in a food kitchen on sunday instead, because the “daily bread” they give in church can’t actually feed people who need daily food, but can’t afford it.

            I need to use my life to its full potential and really oh my gosh, I have to go.

            I just realized I’m writing this for the benefit of a cultist who WANTS to be in a cult. Ahahahah, how silly of me. If you wanted to be free, it’d be one thing, but I get the feeling your goal is just another conversion. “Join the flock of sheep”, Christians say. Literally. I mean, they consider themselves sheep, so this bar is seriously low.

            They say “Religion is the opiate of the masses”. Yeah, it makes you stupid.
            They say “If you could reason with religious people, there wouldn’t be religious people.”

            See ya. Don’t worry, you can reply. I’ll read it, but I’ve talked to religious people before. All they really want is for people to “joooiiinnn usssssss”.
            If your ultimate dopamine release is by winning a religious argument, and feeling like some special “holy knight of god”, sheesh.

            Just sheesh.

          • CCW

            “Logic is subjective.”

            And yet you think your “right” and I’m “wrong?” Those are meaningless words. I’m not trying to argue about God’s existence. Already said as much. Not quoting the bible at you.

            I said, let’s BE CONSISTENT and have a conversation about what we can reasonably talk about in our meaningless universe.

            And you just had one looooooong brain fart where you to tried to prove your right and religious people are somehow more wrong. Silly pseudo atheist, such things don’t exist, remember? So why do you keep talking to me like they do? Like there is a “point” to prove or some “truth” to persuade me to?

            All brain farts. Let it go. Be consistent. Stop trying to prove right or wrong or any of that other infantile nonsense.

            “Logic is subjective.”

            Read that again. Slowly this time. I mean you wrote it… so I assume you understand the meaning and implications of that assertion.

          • P0xi

            Yes.

            For humans, it seems that logic is completely subjective. People seem to believe just about anything they want, and justify it in a way that is logical to them.

            But often it is only them. That’s why people have disagreements. Everyone’s logic is different. If it was the same, we wouldn’t disagree about anything. The very fact we both have different conclusions now is because we aren’t using the same logic.

            But here’s the funny thing: Cult logic is pure shit.
            Atheist logic basically just rejects cult logic and not much else.

            You’re in the wrong here, no matter if logic is objective or not.
            You’re thinking too shallow. Far too shallow, and you’re using the phrase “brain fart” incorrectly. That’s not what it means, but whatever.

            You cannot win an argument by arguing against only one single point out of several pages of information. Or did you think I missed that you went for only the weakest argument I’ve made, and ignored anything that might actually beat you?

          • CCW

            Didn’t ignore it. It’s all irrelevant.

            How would you respond to the following phrase:

            “a;ldj dlkj apsodiao !#a;dj adlj”

            It’s gibberish. Nonsense. Well, so is all your pontification about being more right or correct.

            That’s the point you’re missing. You tell me there is no objective truth, meaning, or morality. Ok, great!

            Then be consistent with that and stop acting like those things do exist by arguing and trying to correct my “error.” Stop trying to make a “point.” There is no “point” to be made. Stop trying to assume an intellectually and/or morally superior position.

            They. Don’t. Exist.

            All your thoughts and feelings and the urge you feel to correct me and tell me why I’m wrong is just your brain fizzing and nothing more. What your brain fizz produces is no more right or wrong than what anyone else’s brain fizz produces. It’s all just the product of cause and effect.

            You forget – I’m not arguing for theism, but for a consistent atheism, which you lack. You can’t tell me there’s no such thing as right and wrong or purpose in the world aside from what we make up and then turn around and tell me why your right and I’m wrong.

            It’s like saying unicorns don’t exist but I have one.

          • P0xi

            You are a very dishonest and manipulating person.
            Do you know what projecting is?

            You are doing it. Everything you are telling me that I’m doing to you, you’re doing to me far harder and stronger than I ever could. Please stop.

            And when I said you’re dishonest, I mean you lie to yourself.
            You’re lying to yourself right now, you piece of shit.

            You should be ashamed of yourself.

          • P0xi

            “You forget – I’m not arguing for theism, but for a consistent atheism,
            which you lack. You can’t tell me there’s no such thing as right and
            wrong or purpose in the world aside from what we make up and then turn
            around and tell me why your right and I’m wrong.”

            Do you seriously fail to grasp what I’m saying?
            Or are you lying to yourself? I can’t even tell. It almost sounds like you’re trying to understand me, but you’re almost deliberately missing the concept.

            I don’t think you understand what is going on in this world. You’re not making enough sense. You’re talking about “why would emotions exist in a deterministic universe”, right? Didn’t you say something like that? That’s so absurd I can hardly believe you’d think that.

            Do you know anything, even the tiniest bit, about neurology? I mean, I’m not an expert either, but surely you understand that emotions can exist without a supernatural deity. That sort of concept should be very easy to grasp. Otherwise, how in the world would all the atheists in the world get by, if they had no emotions? That’s totally insane. Even now, I feel emotion. You really stir me into a frenzy. I don’t know if you’re purposefully obtuse, or just a truly mean, dark-hearted person who’s deliberately trying to misunderstand me.

            About logic:

            Logic in the context of this reality is subjective. In this reality, we deal with humans. If you know anything about humans, it’s that we hardly ever agree on things. Why do some people find it logical to become vegan, for instance? Why do some people find it logical to stay in one religion over another? Why is it logical to be liberal vs libertarian vs republican vs nazi?

            The logic that humans have is subjective. I don’t think it’s worth considering “objective logic”, because any result will be nothing more than us humans pretending like we can grasp objective logic on a universal level.

            No one would believe you if you were actually being logical. I mean, look at me here. I’m trying to tell you that Christianity, a religion that worships a demi-god, and then many of them go as far as pretending to drink his blood to gain everlasting life, is a cult.

            This is so obvious. I mean, the logic here is plain as day. If you pretend to drink blood so that you can live forever after you die, you’re either in a vampire cult, or you’re in a christian cult. The difference is that a person leaves the vampire cult after highschool, but because religion robs people of money, and uses it to gain political and societal control, it seems normal to you.

            But the moment you look at Christianity from the outside, and see how amazingly bizarre and primitive it is, you will understand my point of view. You probably hate to hear this, but I was once so Christian, I had wanted to become a Catholic priest. I was one of those people who read the entire Bible, from page 1 to the very end. Every page.

            I learned a lot of Latin, because the English version of the Bible was censored. Pages were cut from it, it seemed. Have you read about Jesus’ first miracle? He put shrooms in the water. Magic mushrooms. The “Manna from Heaven” that Moses also ate, which allowed him to “see god”.

            People who make “wine” out of water are putting psychedelic drugs in the water, and then giving people intense psychedelic spiritual experiences.

            Or wait, do you think that it’s magic, and he actually turned it to wine?

            Here is the moment I’ve been waiting for: Logic.

            What is more logical? That Jesus was a fraud, and although he said some wise things, was actually the sort of person who would put drugs in water to form a cult?

            Or that he was actually a magician of some sort, able to perform the ability to turn water into wine?

            This is why I argue for a universe that doesn’t include the supernatural elements. To add “mystical bullshit” to reality creates nothing but fantasy. When you hear magic and demons, you think about fiction. Only fiction. Never real life. Or are you going to prove again that your logic is different than mine?

            If you disagree, and think magic or gods are real, then our sense of logic is simply different, and that is why I do not consider logic to be objective.

          • CCW

            I understand your argument. I’ve told you that for the sake of argument I’ll concede god is a fairy tale we tell ourselves and we live in a meaningless world that is without purpose or point and is governed by cause and effect. From particles to people we are all just doing what we do because we are materially determined to do those things.

            In such a world our thoughts, reasonings, etc are just the product of some material causal chain that fired off some neurons.

            I’m asking you to, given that, clarify and hold to a consistent epistemology. You fail to grasp the nihilist critique and the implications of materialistic determinism.

            The fact that you are trying to argue that you are right is inconsistent. You’re not right. There is no such thing. There is just opinion and preference. And that is it.

            So drop the moral and intellectual superiority. Your perspective and opinion doesnt mean anything. Neither does mine. Nothing means anything. It’s all one big pointless joke. There is no point to make or argument to be had.

            Do you understand?

            Im saying be consistent with that and stop trying to prove me wrong or yourself right.

            We each have an opinion. A perspective. A preference. And, so what? None of it matters.

            The fact you don’t really believe that reveals you don’t really buy into your nonsense about the world being ultimately meaningless.

          • P0xi

            What are the implications?
            Why do they matter?

            Does having implications that scare you matter?
            If it’s true, it’s true. Who are you trying to fool by telling me about the implications? Do you think an everlasting paradise simulation is a cold, hard truth about reality?

            No.

            Is a universe without meaning, and a predetermined destiny, as if a machine, a cold hard truth about reality?

            I would say it is. That sort of reality is the one that seems realistic.
            Now we must accept the truth and move on. We need to find a reason to live and be happy in this universe. OR what? Do you intend to suffer just from “knowing too much”? Or do you want to just make up a happy fantasy? Do you fear death?

            I have courage, and you can too. We are never enemies, you know. We both fight for what we think is right, and if there is goodness in your heart, we are on the same side, and we always have been.

            But I’ll be extremely harsh. You do not seem like a good person to me. You seem like a person who makes cheap arguments against easy targets, and dodges important aspects, while pretending not to understand basic logic.

            You’re really starting to irritate me, kid.

            Go and make your argument. What is the implication you suggest?
            You go on to say that this entire argument is worthless, and other comments that suggest that you’d rather die than live in a world that isn’t your ideal world. Just make your case clearly please. I’m reading every word, and taking the time to understand you.

          • CCW

            Why the hostility? You say we are not enemies and yet you’ve been condescending and insulting from outset. Something to consider.

            “Is a universe without meaning, and a predetermined destiny, as if a machine, a cold hard truth about reality? I would say it is. That sort of reality is the one that seems realistic.
            Now we must accept the truth and move on.”

            Ok. Good. But so you understand them that worldviews be they atheist or polytheist are merely the effect of some prior cause? All thought and what we call reason from deduction to induction and so on are illusion. We deduce nothing. Discover nothing. Figure nothing out. We just think and feel what matter in motion and and our brain chemistry tell us to think and feel. So one of the implications is that the argument for the truth of one idea or proposition over another is now pointless.

            Two people with opposing views only see things as they were predetermined to see them and since there is no objective reference both views, though opposing, are equally valid or at least justified.

            That’s why I say the argument is pointless from within that framework. It’s nonsensical. It does nothing. It serves no purpose.

            But the fact you are arguing and continue to debate reveals you don’t actually, at least in a functional sense, really believe that about the world. That you think my belief in God in error and seek to correct me reveals you do believe that there is both objective truth and it is knowable. But neither of those things are epistemologically possibly in a materialistic determined world that is without meaning or purpose.

            That’s the epistemological consequence. The moral and aesthetic consequences are articulated by Nietzsche. There is desire and will to power. We either have strength and courage and cunning to take what we want and shape the world as we want or we fall into the herd. But there is no ought in this world. Help a man or crush him, the universe doesn’t care and neither are we obliged to either way.

            That’s the cold hard truth. Do you accept that?

          • CCW

            Also, unprecedented acceptance is not true. Study Greco Roman sexuality. Same sex attraction and sex were openly practiced and accepted. Hell, they even embraced pedophilia though it was called pederasty…so that line of argumentation doesn’t hold any water.

            And the distinction is arbitrary in that you would probably not afford a person who has innate sexual inclinations towards children the same pass you do same sex attraction. I’m not saying they are the same; but I am saying if the presence of a desire is enough to justify it and make it’s fulfillment morally permissible in one case, why not another – whether that’s pedophilia, incest, bestiality, poly-amorous/polygamous arrangements, etc.

            We’re both drawing lines about what is appropriate sexual desire and expression. Mine are because we are made male/female and sex was created for the purpose of the union of husband/wife as one for intimacy, enjoyment, and procreation as intended by God and revealed most clearly the NT teachings in that it images the union of Christ and his bride, the Church – (Eph 5:31-32).

            Now, you can say that’s wrong, backwards, ignorant of me and ultimately arbitrary and you’re entitled to that opinion and critique.

            But I’m also able to point out that your choice of where to draw the lines and boundaries around appropriate sexual desire and expression are just as arbitrary as you accuse mine of being.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Oh STOP it with that crap! Really, I had this thrown in my face and the distinction is clinical, as well as moral between PATHOLOGY, PARAPHILIAS and sexual orientation.
            Ancient cultures embraced some things that ARE unacceptable.
            But here is where the standards fall down, inconsistent with the stated purpose.
            You’re only harping on same sex attraction as wrong within pederasty. But young girls were taken as WIVES in the Biblical cultures and STILL are.
            The proof?
            We have century and a half year old laws on our books in over 30 states in the US, that allows grown men to marry adolescent girls.
            That is heterosexual men who have demanded it, and maintained it.
            But did religious conservatives go after THOSE laws?
            No.
            Did ANY conservatives?
            No.
            Even when it was pointed out to them.
            I for one, completely agree that ALL desire is justified.
            But clinically and socially, pathology and paraphilias are unacceptable because they are obsessive, non correspondent desires.
            That is to say, the object of desire has no mutual desire.
            Children aren’t sexually attracted to adults.
            And different species, or inanimate objects aren’t either and can’t consent.
            Homosexuality is NOT in any of those categories. But wrongly continues to be place in that, as well as an addiction, or unfettered, uncontrollable aspect of lust.
            Those of us who support gay people and know what sexual orientation is, know this, and understand such important distinctions be made for the sake of an HONEST and morally effective social infrastructure.
            To claim we have no idea about restraint about desire, is DISHONEST, morally and intellectually.
            Own that.
            Again, when you make the wrong assumptions about a behavior, you will approach it wrongly.
            Gay people AND society can benefit the same way from encouraging monogamy, responsibility for each other and children, as well as productivity and contribution in everything that heterosexuals are supported and applauded in doing.
            Clearly, homosexuality doesn’t inhibit this potential. It’s prejudice that does.
            So it’s the prejudice that needs to be gone, not the homosexuality.
            Asexual people have NO desire for sex. They don’t have any attraction to it, nor want to have it. There are variations on gender in this also.
            Where they might be slightly more attracted to the opposite or same sex, as a life traveling companion. Someone who can comingle responsibility, but having sex isn’t a goal, nor is having children necessarily.
            But a child needs to be raised in love, whether it’s by their biological parents or not.
            That they CAN be raised by people as an alternative to their biological parents is just as important.
            Just as having people who are talented, productive, loving and responsible within same sex pair bonding.
            Since such a thing is possible, it should be ENABLED because it harms nothing, and no on that this happen.

            What you don’t want to believe, is that gay people channeling their sexuality within such desire and expression that’s accepted among heterosexuals, can benefit society also.
            That is your prejudice that believes that.
            Not reality.

          • While monogamy is an ideal goal, that is not reality. I can personally attest to this as I had about forty different men in my bed. I have no idea how many of them were with other men. Two of them were married to other guys. Men (gay and straight) find it difficult to remain monogamous (this is why I had to get an HIV test). When you get two guys together, the chances are nil that they won’t engage is sex. This why you aren’t qualified to speak on these matters. You aren’t gay. You aren’t male. You live in a lofty world where if we all hold hands and sing ‘We Are The World’ and just love each other, everything will be fine. It isn’t. It will never be. You should know this working with law enforcement.

            You would think that after forty men in my bed, after having a boyfriend who was just as promiscuous as I, the married ones, I would have found love with one of them. Nope. It was just meaningless sex.

            I finally found the love I needed through Jesus Christ, but you proudly declare the Bible to be wrong. How can it be wrong when I am finally at peace with myself? You are angry. I get that, as I was full of anger at Christians for many years. You are full of pride. I get that, as I was full of pride which manifested itself in my anger towards Christians. You are full of righteous indignation. I get that, because I have to live in a world with people who do not always approve of my past. Some of them even look down on me. That is fine because the wisdom of Jesus when he said “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5
            I was judging other Christians for what a few had done and I was wrong. The same goes for you. You too are judging Christians as a whole for what a few bad ones have done.
            Life sucks. The Bible says so in John 16:33. This isn’t a perfect world and it won’t be until Christ returns. Religions have impossible standards for some and seem to approve of the bad behaviors of some. This is why I don’t follow any religion: I just love the Lord. He was there to rescue me when I nearly died. He finally gave me the peace I needed in my life. He can give you the peace in your life too, if you just develop a relationship with Him. Believe in Jesus Christ. Pray for forgiveness of your sins (all of them). Ask the Holy Spirit to come into your heart and dwell in you.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Again, such a mindf**k you experience BJM. Don’t call your experience as a slut, something that’s inevitable or a part of what being gay is.
            I don’t know how many people who are marginalized, end up fulfilling the destiny that a bigoted society sets up for you.
            If you were taught that all men, not just gay men, were impossible to have as monogamous partners, and to expect nothing else from them.
            Then you won’t.
            Again, don’t blame homosexuality.
            Heterosexual men aren’t slut shamed, even if they bed hundreds of women. Or leave multiple children to poverty, state institutionalization, neglect or abuse.
            Look at the kinds of men who have reached the office of President in this country.
            Adulterers, liars, frauds.. men who have abused women outright and bragged about it to other men.
            They go on with doing so, with impunity a lot of the time.
            If I were an angry activist about THAT, would you keep using that as a means of insult?

            The HIV rates among hetero black women, is commiserate with the rates they are among gay men.
            Most of that, is because these are two minority groups with a harder time with the medical establishment (which has betrayed both groups terribly).
            I participated in anti AIDS activism too.
            You going to insult me as an activist on that as well?
            You brought no context, except to further stereotype gay men.
            That’s only going to damage very young gay people and their need to come to terms with their orientation.
            That’s just as bad as if I’d done that to my sisterhood.

            Yeah, so you love the Lord.
            So you have peace now.
            Why the hard sell?
            The Lord doesn’t need me. The Lord isn’t some insecure, weakling who needs constant validation, and excessive praise. The Lord isn’t an abuser, who requires emotional manipulation and utter and complete control.
            The Lord is better than all that.
            And I’ve embraced things you’re too afraid to.
            How I believe or not, isn’t a priority right now. And I’m certain the Lord can handle it.
            Just because you can’t doesn’t mean the Lord can’t.

            Meanwhile, it’s just us ordinary mortals here. I have work to do. And when I see how a kid who had drug addicts for parents, and a hard road ahead if his two dads hadn’t saved him, is thriving and having a great life with quite an array of people you don’t want to know, THAT is God’s work.
            Deeds, will always matter more than how much Scripture you know or can quote.
            But as a gay man, you’re going to be extremely limited in what that faith community will let you do.
            And the world is bigger and needs more than what you can offer.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I made a grammatical error below. I meant to say that I DO NOT agree, that all desire is justified.
            I know precisely that it is NOT.
            Not for heterosexuals OR for gay people.
            However, heterosexuals are more dangerous in this regard, because a child can issue under terrible conditions and they have.
            Sorry for the error. Didn’t want you to pounce on something I didn’t mean to say.

          • “And the Bible IS wrong…” YOU said this. Enough said.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I sure did say it. So?
            I was right about you, not being able to explain my moral distinctions to you. And its’ ‘enough said’.
            You’ve already been insulting in such a way, you called your insult, my lack of having a sense of humor.
            Yes, YOU decided a while ago, to try some very nasty comments, and you think that in defending your beliefs, that’s what you should get away with?
            Christians are extremely thin skinned about this. Whether they are gay or not.
            Being so insecure is unattractive.
            I just told you I have more in common with you, than you give me credit for.
            But you couldn’t start from THAT.
            No, you’ll take offense at a challenge to your beliefs, not FACTS, beliefs.
            You can’t unring your original bell: when you’re cornered, you’ll only articulate two things: other people’s words from the Bible, or an insult.
            I managed to have an adult, conversation with a few other people.
            You opened the door on this thread with an insult, now you can’t walk it back.
            But you keep putting that on me.
            As if you have MY number.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I said it. I’ll own that. YOU however, don’t even try to own what you say, especially if it’s an outright insult and meant to be offensive.
            The way you take offense, and the way you give offense, speaks volumes about how insecure you still are.
            Even after all the sound and fury in trying to defend your beliefs.

          • “And the Bible IS wrong…”
            “Don’t need to hear Scripture…”
            YOU said this.

          • Sandi Luckins

            Homosexuals singled themselves out when they started to lie to people that homosexuality is not a sin. They caused their own problems. The church is only trying to help people to not go to Hell because of these lies.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Right, and black people singled THEMSELVES out, when they started to try and be treated like whites.
            And women singled themselves out when they dared to try to vote, or challenge the realms of men in ministry, politics, medicine, law….
            Homosexuality is NOT a sin. And to put truth to it, if all the gay people went away tomorrow, what problems and sins of the world would go away with them?
            That is proof of moral neutrality. Gay people most of all, have worked to be completely open, honest and integrated with humanity without threat, coercion and punishment.
            The Church lies when they say their motive is to save gay souls. To restrict any knowledge of who gay people are and their intent and purpose. The Church does not want people to really know or find out through the most reliable source: gay people themselves.
            I don’t think you’d appreciate a man lecturing a female on what she deserves to have during labor, or that HE is more expert on childbearing than a woman that’s born children.

            So your ideas about homosexuality are going to go by the wayside, because there are better, more compassionate and intellectually moral people who know better than you do about that.
            And know much better than the writers of the Bible knew about it.
            The way we know better about the pain of child birth too.
            And can challenge you rightfully on how ignorant and insufferably so, you are.

          • Sandi Luckins

            There is a vast difference between race and immorality.

          • Regan DuCasse

            There is also a vast difference between gender and nationality. But people have been singled out to be punished for factors they have no control over and didn’t choose.
            Injustice is injustice. It’s been directed at people for their sexual orientation, gender, nationality and color.
            And all have been told that their distinction is a sin. So it’s the religious that can’t distinguish sin from innocence in many ways.
            And not being able to do that, is wrong and there IS a moral imperative to know the difference.

          • Sandi Luckins

            sin is always a choice.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Sandi, I haven’t figured out if you’re a woman or not. But I’ll remind you of history. Some older history in which those with mental illness were tortured, and sometimes burned at the stake to will out their demons. Or as punishment for offenses taken by those forced to follow church doctrine. I can fast forward to recent history, where homosexuality was also considered mental illness, but wrongly classified as such because the only research and test subjects were those subjected to institutionalization, and not those who successfully integrated into society.
            Mental illness cannot be prayed away, nor treated like something that is infectious. It is a sub category in which any human being might be subject to it, and sometimes families have predisposition for them.
            But would you have diagnostic techniques remain at over three hundred years old?
            Or do you trust that diagnostic techniques have improved and are more accurate? Therefore, those invested in truly helping people, can do so more effectively for their betterment?

            Putting a blanket assumption, on a wrongful diagnosis, won’t create a better SITUATION for that person. Even simply putting people in a room and walking away doesn’t help them either.
            There is a moral responsibility to being rightful in what you’re approaching for the outcome to work.
            In other words, if a person doesn’t have cancer, chemo or any other therapy won’t work, because they aren’t ill to begin with.
            Sins, as defined by religious communities, has too broad a definition, and no concise means of being accurate in addressing it.

          • Sandi Luckins

            And…..sin is always a choice.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Well, you not engaging the recent history and those better informed than you are is YOUR choice.
            It’s just that no innocent gay kid should have to pay the price for YOUR choice.

          • Sandi Luckins

            No child who thinks they are homosexual has to. Christ died to save us from our sin. He said He would forgive and heal us of our sin. There is good news for that child. They don’t need to remain a homosexual with no hope. Jesus gives life and life more abundantly. What about you? Do you know Jesus?

          • Regan DuCasse

            Sandi, yes they do. They aren’t choosing to be gay. We are made of more orientations than just heterosexual. And the other orientations ARE just as valid, and important. Just not as common.
            We all have blood, but it’s different types.
            You doing to say that the less common blood is BAD blood?
            It’s ignorant, fearful humans and not all of them, that decided to vilify being gay.
            I’ve heard from Christians, the Bible and Christ all my life.
            Haven’t had that same opportunity to hear from gay people.
            So yes, gay people ARE gay, need to stay that way, for the sake of the truth coming out too.
            Nobody is born Christian.
            But everyone is born with a sexual orientation. Period.
            It’s Christians who are the bad guests, deciding to rearrange something in someone that is vital to THEM.
            And not for YOU or anyone else to keep deciding otherwise.
            It’s not hopeless to be gay, and it’s arrogant of you to assume that.
            Everyone that keeps saying that to a young gay person, sets them up for emotional and spiritual blackmail and depression if they don’t measure up to what YOU think they should.
            You and your ilk, had your turn.
            And now it’s someone else’s turn. It’s time for a gay child to speak their needs, without people like you running interference.
            What about me?
            It’s NOT about me.
            But someone else’s needs beyond the limits you want to set up for them.
            I just saw a post on Facebook, by a gay man who has been with his husband for 20 years. It’s their anniversary.
            He said that when he was so young, he’d been selfish ( a lot of young people can be), and didn’t know a lot about the world.
            But his slightly older husband, has made him a committed husband and father to their two adopted kids. And he’s praised his husband, and extols even more love for him and their children.
            Children by the way, they’ve taken around the world, and this country.
            One of them was born with a serious defect and told when he was very little that no one would love him, want him or adopt him.
            Well, they were wrong.
            And one of the dads has been serving as a SF sheriff’s deputy for twenty years.

            I know a lot of gay couples like that. Who have gone over and beyond a call greater than claiming love for Jesus.
            Does it not occur to you, that without saying it so much, that the love for God is shown in much better more important ways?
            Don’t you EVER ask me again.
            Because I know you don’t really care.

          • Sandi Luckins

            homosexuality is a choice and it is a sin.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Repeating that, in a court of law, or the court of public opinion is meaning less and less.
            There are more intelligent, moral and honest people than yourself, committed to the kinds of social justice that must prevail.
            If it’s at the expense of your opinion on homosexuality, so be it.
            It’s time.

          • jstan442

            there are intelligent unsaved ppl who trade in a lie for the truth–just becoz they are smart does not mean they are right in the eyes of a Holy God–but we are all given free choice–you just choose to be sinful–you do remember sodom and gomorrah? judgment is coming

          • Regan DuCasse

            Live in fear, jstan. You just be afraid for you own hide. Just not at the expense of opportunity, for gay people to be known better, and who they really are, than your doctrine tries to tell and dictate.
            Yeah, I remember S&G, a place under siege where a man charged with helping angels disguised as strangers, threw them to an angry mob, with his daughters in the bargain to save his own skin.
            He was an amoral coward.
            Homosexuality isn’t cowardice.
            And neither is it to try and have the option to know gay people fully, and with open honest inclusion.
            MY choice is to have each and every opportunity to have this in my life.
            And I’m sick and tired of people like you trying to take it from me and other people.
            If you respect choices, than actually let other people know gay people fully, instead of cutting them off from us, with an endless parade of gay people whose limitations or limits being forced on them, won’t allow that to happen.
            If YOU are afraid of judgement. Then that’s YOUR choice.
            Be afraid, I don’t care.
            Just don’t spread that fear infection. Fear and ignorance, or anything advanced by it, is never good.

          • jstan442

            God and the Bible do NOT lie–He loves everyone and wants to save everyone–but not all will be saved–more will suffer thru their unbelief and living in their sin–a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth–if your choice is against His written law-fine–but don’t try to tell me about spreading fear etc–it is you who deny the word of God-it is you who want to send others to hell becoz of sex–sodom and gommorah is a warning-heed it

          • Regan DuCasse

            “it is you who deny the word of God…”

            And how many times have I told you I heard it already? Do you really think so much repetition is helping here?
            Do you?
            Don’t try to tell you about spreading fear.
            “There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth…”
            “It’s you who wants to send others to hell, because of sex, Sodom and Gommorah is a warning, heed it.”

            Then why throw hell, and such doom in people’s faces if that’s not what you’re trying to spread?
            Dude, we’re still waiting.
            The real question is: if the warning isn’t heeded, what are YOU going to do about it?
            It’s still just us folks here, jstan.
            Or hadn’t you noticed?

          • jstan442

            you choose where you want to end up eternally–that is a gift from God–do you deny Jesus exists? (i really don’t know)–yes help ppl here with medical, food, home etc but also help them give up sin–no one who continues in their sin will enter heaven—-and rejecting jesus is the unpardonable sin–no going back from that

          • Regan DuCasse

            “Do you deny Jesus exists”( I really don’t know).
            That’s right you don’t. Because not once, have you actually engaged me in such a way, I thought you really cared.
            I’ve been asked in a rhetorical way. In such a way that I didn’t think anyone really thought I knew anything about God and Christ.
            Even after saying I was raised in church, own a Bible and know it very well.
            I didn’t think you were interested, and especially not in what my relationship with God or Christ actually is.
            Because right up front, you let me know that whatever answer I gave, was going to be met with insult and consistent condescension, if not hostility.
            None of us is the same, so taking the same paths, even to get to the same place, isn’t going to be that possible.
            You didn’t ask, how rocky or tough my path might have been.
            And it wouldn’t be wrong to think you really don’t care.
            You don’t.
            You’ve called me names, and no matter how many times I said I need more than the same pat answer, you give me the same pat answer anyway.
            If I can predict what you’ll say, then there isn’t much reason for you to say it, or me to hear it if I did already.
            You assume rejection of Jesus, when really, it’s rejection of YOU.
            You rejected me first, so responding in kind would be reasonable.
            As long as you keep forgetting that you’re talking to someone who has heard the same thing you have, and possibly longer than you have, and is looking for something different or more, that means you can’t deliver.
            You haven’t so far.
            That’s not my fault, nor my problem.
            Remember, I’m not gay either. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to take this off of you, or anyone.
            I’m pretty sure, God can handle rejection, and doesn’t intimidate me in the least. I don’t see God as being so wrathful, or controlling.
            But other human beings sure love doing that kind of thing.
            So don’t attack me, because I know the difference.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I thought you really should know this Sandi, parents, even parents who are from religious families, are learning how to truly address their gay child. And they will give up their religious community for that child, if necessary.
            Because blood is thicker than any holy book.
            Parents are learning not just to accept, but protect their gay or trans child.
            They know that spiritually, and emotionally, it’s incumbent on them, to know and learn as much as possible about their child’s distinctive qualities.
            Which aren’t a handicap or prohibitive in that child being a success in so many other arenas.
            Being Christian, or whatever religion, really isn’t as important as you’d like to think.
            For now, the parents of gay children have been much less intimidated, and are far more civil than those who attack their children.
            But keep pushing it Sandi. And you’ll fight yourself on the receiving end of tiger parents of gay children who wouldn’t mind seeing a stake through your heart.
            Know when to back the hell off.
            Know YOUR place.
            And know that you don’t know everything, and shouldn’t interfere in that process.
            Because but for the safety of you hiding behind a computer monitor and keyboard, I am a mother tiger too.
            You were warned.

          • Sandi Luckins

            homosexuality is a sin

          • While I doubt it, it may help to say that the acts of homosexuality are a sin. But Reagan is trying to obfuscate the issue by declaring some immoral acts (like homosexuality like I was involved in is okay but womanizing, pedophilia and bestiality as wrong. I is all a violation of God’s commandment to not commit adultery (Exodus 20:14). The bestiality taboo is usually done out of worship of a pagan god which is a violation of God’s commandment to not have other gods before Him (Exodus 20:3)
            It is moral relativism. Plain and simple, but she doesn’t understand because she herself said the Bible is wrong and that she doesn’t need to read the scriptures.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Do NOT speak for me!!! I have not in the least displayed moral relativism, whatsoever.
            I have given specific, well known and respected clinical and moral definitions of those things which are non exclusive, non correspondent and distinctly harmful.
            All I have said, and there is PROOF of this, is that gay people are capable of the same things that are supported and even applauded in heterosexuals.
            And are harmed by the same things as heterosexuals.
            Evidently, you can’t understand and so you twist my words and speak for me inappropriately, to put it mildly.
            This is where you are intellectually dishonest.

            You have as yet to answer when I asked you: what would YOU do to change things for the better?
            And in what possible way, is monogamy, commitment and responsibility a BAD thing for gay people to achieve as couples?
            Well, I’m listening.
            And do NOT quote Scripture, and do NOT give me stereotypes.
            Try and be spontaneous as yourself.

          • P0xi

            Sandi, sin is not real.

            You are in a cult, and everything you believe is a lie.

          • Sandi Luckins

            Jesus helps me. Who helps you in your cult?

          • P0xi

            I am not in a cult.
            Why do you think I’m in a cult? Do you think everyone needs to be in a cult?
            That’s silly, you know.

            Have you ever touched Jesus? Have you ever seen him? Have you been in the same room as him? Or is he just a man who lived and died two thousand years ago, and now a bunch of people worship him like a god?

            I think it’s obvious what the truth is. Stop lying to yourself.
            Jesus was just a normal guy, and he doesn’t help you.
            You’re just in a cult that makes you think you need to rely on them.

          • Sandi Luckins

            I’ve experienced the love of Jesus in ways you will never understand. I suggest you learn something about the lifestyle before you attempt to condemn it. You only make yourself look silly.

          • P0xi

            That’s the same thing people say about drugs.
            “Just try it man, you’ll never know until you try it”.

            Sorry, but I won’t take the classic “Opiate of the masses”.
            I hope you know that quote, or you are seriously in a little bubble.

          • jstan442

            what a caustic little troll you are!! sandi is right–but the end times ppl will be lovers of themselves and defy the word of God–it is all going as the Bible prophesied—do you even believe in God? i don’t think so otherwise you would be more concerned with where your child will end up in eternity–separated from God or enjoying life with Him?

          • Regan DuCasse

            Haven’t you been listening?
            I was raised Christian, I have a Bible and I know Scripture reasonably well.
            I am involved in more forensic, scientific work now. Always had an interest in science.
            To expand one’s life, and engage in more than the repetition that Sandi and the mob here engages in, there is MORE.
            More to learn, more to know, more to understand.
            Essentially about homosexuality and gay people, because the doctrine you keep repeating doesn’t square with reality.
            That’s no one’s fault but that of people who have placed limits and yokes on gay people and those who need to experience them more and without interference.
            You have NOTHING new to say or offer. I have lived my life hearing and knowing YOUR side of things.
            And it’s NOT ENOUGH.
            You have absolutely NOTHING new or left for me to hear or read that I haven’t already.
            Not even Matt Moore.
            I have no fear of whatever you try to say God is going to do.
            None.
            Name calling isn’t helping your call to serve God.
            Insulting those who expect MORE from you won’t either.
            You can’t deliver.
            I’m really checking to see of you can or will.
            Guess not.

          • jstan442

            read your diatribe–you are wrong–God will not be mocked–hiv aids was a judgment on homosexuality–repent–all the knowledge in the world will NOT make you right–God has the only answer–it is a sin

          • Regan DuCasse

            Fatal STD’s have been a part of ALL mankind’s life for centuries. Syphilis was the AIDS of it’s time.
            HIV/AIDS can effect ANYONE.
            Homosexuality has nothing to do with it.
            Let me lay some facts down to you.
            Africa, unfortunately was Ground Zero for the largest infection rates among heterosexual men and women.
            The risk factor is much the same for American blacks who are heterosexual as well.
            I have participated in the Black Woman’s Health Study for over 25 years. And I volunteered with an HIV/AIDS prevention organization and donated to those who rode or walked for AIDS charities.
            That volunteer work required 8 weeks of college level courses on STD’S the latest research and how best to inform the public about protection.
            I bet YOU never did that much.
            But look how you’d point a finger at the misfortune of the infected.
            You wouldn’t fight the DISEASE.
            But just as there were committed and compassionate members of the medical establishment who found the cure and treatment for syphilis. HPV and other std’s are being eliminated.
            There are people committed to science, technology and social justice to give restoration, success and comfort to others.
            THAT is AN answer and why God isn’t and never has been the ONLY answer for anything.

            Typically I shouldn’t have to mention the work I’ve done in certain areas.
            But you say something stupid, and nasty about why people get AIDS, you need to get schooled.
            THAT is yet another example of the importance of an education, and how Christians can SO drop the ball when it comes to the heavy stuff.
            And how they can be very wrong about how they talk to people.

          • jstan442

            it started with homosexuals—God’s heart is broken becoz of sin–there are still repercussions when you sin–we all give to the charities we feel close to–i give for evangelism–w/o giving your heart to Jesus than you are lost eternally–that is most important to me

          • Regan DuCasse

            Historically, socially and medically…no, it didn’t start with homosexuals.
            I just told you who I worked for. And I just now got a newsletter from APLA.
            There are several current medical history books out (including one I read several summers ago about the origins of the CDC), and none of them will concur with your comment.
            If your evangelism is so important to you, and that’s all you want to do, then pray for medical researchers and doctors to be able to continue to find effective treatment until a vaccine and cure are found.
            As it happens, there are such good treatments around now, and in remarkably short time considering, that HIV/AIDS infection gives those infected normal life spans.
            I know who to thank for that. And you should too.
            Because all kinds of people have gotten infected, not just gay people. And even if it was ONLY gay people who did, you should still want for them to have access to information, and preventive measures.
            Since I live with a highly life threatening auto immune disorder, I worked alongside a group of people who suffer from different ones. We had a lot in common when it came to our risk factors.
            And I found them to be very strong, compassionate, charitable and well informed.
            What I don’t understand, is why you seem to have a problem with THAT.

          • Jack

            Nope.

          • Jack Van Fossen

            It’s a well-known fact that AIDS started in Africa and was first seen in chimpanzees before it was transmitted to humans, either through eating of infected bush meat or direct bites from the animals themselves. So, by your logic God infected the monkeys for sinning before letting it get transmitted to humans? Wow

          • P0xi

            You just said God has the only answer, but I’m curious: If God has the answer, why did you give the answer?

            Are you saying that you are God, and you determine what is right and wrong for people? I think your mind is corrupt.

            You are a bad person.

          • P0xi

            Regan, give it up.

            You are right. Christianity is a pyramid-scheme doomsday cult.
            It spreads like a virus. “If you don’t convert your friends and family, they suffer.”
            It forces people to live under absurd rules. “Believe and obey, get a reward. “Disobey and disbelieve, and get punished.”

            Of course the second you stop believing, the punishment and reward both go away at the same time. The moment you stop caring about religion, you can actually move on.

            These people are literally machines. Why do you think they say the same thing over and over again? They can’t even read what you write. They half-way respond to some of your writing, but they can’t even think of original thoughts.

            These guys are kool-aid drinking cultists, and if the Bible said “All men have to shave their head at 25 years old”, they’d do it. If the Bible said “Kill yourself at age 50”, they’d just do it without question.

            These people are not people. They are brainwashed animals, living in a fantasy world where after they die, they enter some magical paradise simulation that never ends. I mean, imagine heaven for a wild rabbit.

            Lots of carrots, other rabbits to have sex with, I mean, just elevate that to what a human would want, and you get heaven. It’s completely desperate for believers.

            Then they pay the tithe, make sure to infect their friends and children, and end up giving a certain church a lot of money and a lot of political and societal control.

            Enough control to ruin the lives of black people who are forcefully taught the Bible, instead of their native religion, or instead of factual science, enough to ruin the lives of gay people, who now have to live in fear, or dodge stereotypes of being a slut, and they oppress women, make men into brainwashed machines, and generally ruin the world for everyone.

            They go to war for their imaginary god, they steal, plunder, rape, convert and do whatever they want. The Nazis were also Christian, and that’s why they murdered Jews, who they saw as the people who killed Jesus, it’s why they killed gay people, who they are told to hate in the Bible, and why they killed gypsies, and other pagan types.

            Christians are bad people. I know that sounds harsh, but if you’re a Christian, the chance that you look down on people and end up hurting them is extremely high, so I don’t trust Christians one bit.

            That’s just how it is. In this life, you need to be smart enough to do three things: Dodge consumerist advertisements, avoid political propaganda, and quite importantly, disregard religious brainwashing attempts.

            Christians are compelled to infect anyone they meet into another Christian. It’s a virus for the brain, and you’d better not catch it, and if you have it, you’d better cure it.

            The truth is cold and harsh. Why wouldn’t the truth be?
            The truth is that there is no god. There is no heaven. All religions are made up. It’s mythology, like ancient Greek stuff, except Christianity makes you hurt people.

            It’s just pretty sad that so many people are brainwashed into a pyramid scheme cult, just because of a bunch of weird stories from thousands of years ago.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Hi there. Thank you for this.
            I appreciate you taking the time. I’m not disagreeing with you one bit.
            I do however have an obligation in knowing what people like Moore are up to and who they are talking to.
            I took the eleven year old son of friends of mine to the movies, the other Saturday.
            He has two dads, they are a mixed couple and this child doesn’t share their ethnicity.
            His godmothers are two transwomen. He’s been to Europe twice already, sings beautifully in the children’s choir at their church (hearing them sing, not THAT is heaven).
            He’s quite a proper gentleman mostly. Affectionate (rare in boys his age) and he’s adopted from a very difficult family (a situation played out by the millions with irresponsible people having children they aren’t fit to raise).
            But he’s one of so many kids who can benefit from their gay parents being married, being themselves.
            He and I both love the Marvel universe. The metaphors on being different, feared and misunderstood tend to resonate strongly for folks like me and this kid, his dads and his godmothers.
            We got this.
            His smile is like a sunrise, and as we walked past all the coming attractions posters, he’s already planning our next date.
            We got this.
            Because all that matters is the love we have of each other. His dads would die for him. Would kill for him.
            So would I.
            We got this because his dads saving him from being an inner city tragedy are doing god’s work.
            They advocate for adoption.
            They are as unselfish and compassionate as humans can get.
            These are the gay and trans folks I know.
            And evidently, most of the people here don’t know.
            Their loss.
            And they can’t and won’t continue to make it that way.
            We got this.
            And thanks again.

          • P0xi

            Aye, religious people are known to make friends of people who you should see as enemies, and make enemies of people who you ought to see as friends.

            That’s why you get pedopriests raping kids, while spewing about how gay people are evil, and all the brainwashed people in the pews just nod and agree, because if they dare question even one word, god will smite them. Plus why question it? Ignorance is bliss.

          • Regan DuCasse

            My concern, was the fomenting of stereotype, and those gay and trans individual that defied it, just being open and honest, were called names or treated as an enemy of civilization itself.
            When you don’t have the option of safely being open, and allowing for the authentic person to emerge, then people will believe the bigoted, ignorant and stereotyping and have no alternative educational or personal experience to resist it.
            Even within a family.
            I have always resented being told WHAT to think and how to think about a certain person, without experiencing it for myself.

            My parents weren’t exactly neutral on the subject of gay and trans folks. They were accepting that there was more to them than what the general public thought. And being black people, understood how it felt and how dangerous it was to be misrepresented, distrusted and have people be hostile to you on the basis of ignorance and not facts or experience.
            I was never restrained in learning all I could, to experience all I could and see for myself.
            The religious aren’t up against anything evil, when people have become more accepting.
            But now are witnessing what progress can be made when people know a truth that the religious try to keep from them.
            I brought up my professional credentials because it does bring you closest to the most depraved of human behaviors.
            And for people to keep trying to hammer to me that homosexuality is equivalent to them, is ridiculous.
            To call me names or dismiss that experience is too.
            It’s proven to be dangerous to even gay children.
            Lethally so.
            And so far, not a single religious person has justified it whatsoever.
            Repeating over and over the Bible says so, when no one of the Biblical eras should impress anyone as models of social justice, or behavioral science.

            Once human beings achieved flight, and you see how religious communities eschew technical and other types of human achievement, all bets are off that they should demand the kind of accommodation that restricts more human interaction with gay people.
            There is something so persistent in this prejudice against the gay and transgender.
            More rational and rightful minds can clearly set it as a vestige of misogyny.
            And religious communities are inherently misogynist and that’s not healthy either.

          • Zac

            So when the woman you sleep with (I guess your wife?) gets HIV and transmits it to you, what will you say then? Will god have sent HIV to prove to you what a nasty little shit you are?

          • Don’t reply to her. She is try to confuse spiritual matters with ‘intellectualism’. She clearly said, and with her own words “And the Bible IS wrong…”
            “Don’t need to hear Scripture…”
            For all her intellectualism, she know nothing, as I once did. It is a trap, so that she can feel superior and stoke her own ego for standing up to us ignorant Christians.

          • Sandi Luckins

            Thank you Bradley.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I’m calling you out on your lack of consistence, except in being rather cowardly about this.
            You run.
            And now since you’re not up to the kinds of challenge that’s inevitably going to come to your sense of security and doctrine, you run.
            So run.
            Sandi can be right behind you too.
            Just keep running. There are better people at work on what’s more important.
            That is what you’re witnessing. The difference between people with forthright courage, and those without it.

          • Not really sure of what you mean by running. If you mean I am running from the fact that I am SSA, then no I am not. I accepted it long ago. If you mean I am running from that lifestyle, then I would have to agree because I lived it for many years and it nearly killed me. If you mean I am running towards God then I resoundingly say yes, because He is who I need.
            I think what offends you most is that there is someone who is opposed to your opinions. This a pride issue for you (I had my own pride issues which left me apart from my brothers and sisters in Christ). Your very vocal opinion is well stated. But you need to accept that not everyone will agree with it, and they will not, even if you try to impose your will on them (which I do not think is out of the realm of possibility).

          • Regan DuCasse

            Look at DR84’s comment to me. This is not a pride issue for me.
            It was NEVER about me.

            But a matter of dispelling the bigotry attached to why you’re not accepted. Period.
            No matter what you do, or your declarations that you are now a celibate gay man interested only in spreading the gospel of how wrong it is in life to be a gay person in a romantic relationship.
            What other contributions you could make, are not mentioned. Not even by you.
            All you can talk about is how bad being gay was for you.
            That fuels the bigoted assumption that gay people have only one function for themselves, but you support only one function for those that wouldn’t have cared if you’d succeeded in your suicide.
            Of COURSE you embraced God and Christ and threw the vulnerable gay child trying to navigate his life without falling into the traps YOU did, right to the wolves.
            You have no defense for what you did.

            And you wouldn’t acknowledge or admit what a betrayal of other gay people that is.
            I’m not gay, remember. I have no skin in this, nor do I have to care. I can go about my day and not give a crap about you, or matt or any of the other gay people anywhere.
            Remember?
            I have that choice. I always had that choice.
            But I know too many gay children who do not have a choice. They are ALREADY forced to confront the contempt like Sandi and DR84 displays.
            And the defense of embracing God and Christ will NOT help them.
            Someone being opposed to my opinions is nothing new. And don’t forget, I could have easily shared them, because I’m accepted as a straight person.
            But I won’t, and wouldn’t betray gay people to the doctrine that’s already influenced so many and NOT in a good way.
            And pretending it IS and has been a good way, is just cowardice.
            Because you have to know how vulnerable gay people and especially gay young people still are.
            The stakes for some, even higher than they were for you.
            To not engage this essential part of why I’m here, is cowardice.
            You don’t like being called out on that.
            The stock, CANNED answer is “go read the Bible”.
            So no, what has happened historically is NOT having a choice. Being coerced by being in a desperate place, or having no options because of abandonment by family or others, isn’t a choice.
            You just loved using the cheap shot that I’m an angry activist.
            You skirted the stereotype that black women are angry.
            People who abuse us, love doing that.
            And enough times, you tried being just as nasty.
            Yeah, I’m an activist.
            Sometimes angry. Why shouldn’t I be at how gay children especially are treated?
            Well?
            And it’s EFFECTIVE activism that sure has gained more ground for gay people, than evidently you hadn’t the skin to participate in.
            There is good angry and bad angry.
            I turn my anger at the bullying, the suicides, the forcing children into ex-gay religious programs, or couples not having the protection of marriage, into activism that would sure benefit YOU, were you to walk away from what you’re doing now.
            Don’t put down activism you had no part of, and made NO changes for gay people for the better where it mattered.
            Bigotry and emotional blackmail and mental manipulation aren’t hard to spot. I’ve lived with it myself.
            I understood what you went through, and even related to it on some levels.
            I was quite ready to empathize, especially when an innocent gesture of affection and support towards another man went sideways and you were SUSPECT.

            But instead of telling the people who suspected you, to think twice about their prejudice.
            You apologized (virtually) for being who you are.
            Even as you were being sensitive and supportive at the moment towards someone else.
            I don’t have to accept gay people being treated in that way. I don’t have much of an option when it comes to avoiding, or not accepting the doctrine that makes you and every other gay person alive to be thought of as useless and a threat.
            If I agree with that, I won’t ACT against it.
            You couldn’t cut it as a gay person.
            That’s clear. But that doesn’t mean other gay people are inevitably going to be the mess you were. It wasn’t being gay that nearly killed you.
            That same crap happens to straight people too. I shared a bit of your same experience.
            So no, it wasn’t your being gay.
            It was being set up for a fall. And so, you fell.
            There are traps set for black folks too. And women.
            Some fall, some don’t.
            But they aren’t allowed to blame their color or gender, are they?
            Like you can conveniently blame your orientation.

            And all those Christians or people like DR84 that messed up other gay people, and laid the trap you fell into, now try to act like your saviors and heroes.
            Because they pretend they showed you more interest and direction than the gay community did.
            No, not everyone has to agree with me. But I’m not afraid of the truth, or telling it.
            I”m not afraid. Period.
            I’m no coward, and I don’t run from a challenge.
            I welcome them.
            Deal with it.

          • Sorry, but I won’t be held responsible for leading a child into sin, nor encouraging him to engage in said sin. Not happening. I can relate to him how engaging in a homosexual lifestyle nearly killed me though.
            You seem to forget that other Christians didn’t lay a trap for me. I was raised without religion. I have no excuse but my own poor judgment.
            I noticed that you always turn the arguments around from the homosexual lifestyle into being about you being black and a woman. I think you have issues regarding this, that you haven’t dealt with. Give it all to the Lord.
            I had to give mine: homosexuality; perception that all Christians rejected me; anger over this; the death of my best friend. I could never deal with these on my own and it was foolhardy to think I could. I was never meant to even try, but I let my foolish pride get in the way and it interfered with a relationship with God.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I didn’t forget, because: It’s not about YOU.
            If Christians didn’t lay a trap for YOU, they have for other gay people.
            I only mention being a black woman, as relating to what it’s like to be abused, misrepresented and the subject of stereotype and derision, bigotry and discrimination.
            As a means that I can empathize, because I know that gay people endure the same thing.
            I have issues with that kind of TREATMENT.
            Not being a black woman.
            YOU have a problem with being gay, and more than a few people here also have a problem with YOU being gay.
            And there isn’t much of a line, from keeping you in the social position you hold in a Christian community, to limiting gay kids on their options in the real world.
            What you’d lead a gay kid into, is right into a closet.
            Where his needs, his ability to navigate the real world and the unrealistic expectations of that world, will follow his days.
            He will be suspect, he will have few options and he will be kept from positive and essential gay role models.
            As you were yourself.
            What you want to do, is not NEW. It’s been done, and no does NOT work.
            Because people like DR84, are around to police what gay people do. And he has no restraint as to what he can say or do.
            But a gay kid needs to be strong, and able to resist those negative messages that you and DR84 combine to misrepresent and mismanage a gay child’s life.

            Sin, is a religious concept. Not one that distinguishes enough, or correctly what human behavior actually is.
            Denying the clinical, factual, societal and scientific facts, is moral and intellectual cowardice.
            And any concept that requires fear or ignorance to advance itself is NEVER good.
            And unfortunately for religious doctrine, a lot of it is about keeping believers fearful and ignorant.
            And no gay or trans child deserves to pay the price for it.
            Period.
            You have no defense here, BJM.
            No justification, no rationality.
            It’s been done before, and has had negative consequences.
            You have nothing new to offer. It’s the same old doctrine repackaged by Matt Moore as “yes I’m gay, but if I do all this, THEN you’ll like me, right?”
            The same old doctrine.
            Own it.

          • Regan DuCasse

            So what would you propose to change things?
            Because the road you’re on, certainly won’t and hasn’t.
            I’m listening.

          • You really have no idea of what the gay lifestyle is, do you? No, can’t know because you are neither gay or a male. Your activism is as useless as a limousine liberal from New York; and you call anyone who disagrees with you a bigoted, ignorant, uninformed, religious fanatic homophobe. You can rant and posture all you want, declaring that you represent those of us who are gay because of your experience with being discriminated against, all you want.
            Your words mean nothing.
            I’m not feeding into your diatribes anymore on this article.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Are you trying to tell me that the gay ‘lifestyle’ is all about promiscuity, drug use, spreading disease and lack of moral direction and commitment in relationships, then I heard that too.
            But that’s been said.
            It’s also been said about black men too.
            That because of all the children they spread without marrying the mothers of their kids, or the high crime rates in black neighborhoods, is supposed to represent blacks having no morals, no sense of sexual responsibility.
            There were five states in the Deep South, during the 60’s that used birth records and low marriage rates to ‘prove’ that black males were of such low character, that segregation was still a justifiable social system.
            But males in general aren’t really taught how to navigate their lives if they have certain types of character or traits.
            Even innocent ones.
            Some societies ideas about masculinity are pretty insane in and of themselves.
            So are you also trying to tell me, that in a nation or society that’s devalued gay people enough to that gay people themselves feel no value towards themselves or each other, that all the stereotypes are correct and gay people deserve to be locked up, and disappeared from the face of the Earth?
            Unless they show how devout they are, and are just as interested in being pious as some kind of proof that they are worthy of being kept free so as not to offend such delicate heterosexual (or religious) sensibilities?

            So if you agree that gay people aren’t worthy of support in being treated the way heterosexuals are, nor worthy of anything but living like priests and nuns, but without the social prestige of that station, it’s going to be all good, right?

            My words might not mean anything to you.
            But they do to others.
            Bury your head where you’re most comfortable.
            You threw the first stone on this thread, then couldn’t handle someone casting it right back.
            The lesson: don’t cast stones you aren’t prepared to duck from someone with better aim.

          • Stacy

            Bradley is correct, Sandi. There are certain people who are here only to cause trouble, troll Matt, and make you frustrated. The only way to make the trolls go away is not to feed them. Save your effort for those who want to listen. Not for those who just want to fight.

          • Sandi Luckins

            My apologies to the group.

          • Stacy

            No need to apologize. Some of us are actually here to help :o)

          • Lyle Nelson

            Biblically required execution of gays was part of Old Testament law that is no longer required because of Jesus’ fulfillment of the law for us through His perfect life and death for our sins on the cross. That means that now, homosexual activity is still declared to be a sin, along with many, many other sins. But there are no Christian “requirements” for immediate punishment. And if we repent of our sin, and accept Jesus as our Savior, His death has paid the penalty for our sin. But we must still give up our sin, and when we as imperfect humans still occasionally sin, we must genuinely repent of that sin, and continue to do our best to lead a sinless life. This is true for all sin, there is no “discrimination” against homosexual sin. Sin is sin period.
            As to how gays are currently treated, I will readily admit that there is much room for improvement there, even among Christians.
            And civil law is a whole different animal, not bound by Christian standards.

          • Regan DuCasse

            What about all the New Testaments that are human progress and communication and experience, that’s left much of what people believed THEN, in the dust?
            The OT is one chronicle, the NT is another…but there is more to us, to our experience, more and more, that’s extended beyond the limits of the Bible.
            Civil law isn’t really all that removed from some tenets of the Torah. Which is recognizable as Tort law.

            I was just listening to a man working to chronicle the plans of Elon Musk and a mission to Mars.
            What the human race has accomplished is amazing, and technology has shown us what the heavens actually look like. Men of science, were punished by men of faith.
            Women didn’t participate in the writing of the Bible, unless one or so was a ghost writer to never be credited with it, but I doubt it.
            Women’s participation in ministry, is a modern notion.
            I am charged here with trusting in the Bible, but have absolutely no reason to trust a human being with it.
            The abuses have been too great.
            And the ability to learn, and understand each other beyond it, seems very restrained by relying on it so much.
            I don’t like being restrained, and forced to trust the very people who’s personal behavior and integrity with religious doctrine, when there are other opportunities to know a human being much better than the Bible instructs.
            Working in an environment like crime scene photography, or any first responder job, puts you closest to some extremes of human behavior and it’s result.
            For my professional expertise in criminal behavior to be dismissed, on deference to Biblical proscriptions on it, is ridiculous.
            Just as I’ve mentioned before the religious taboos on things that have advanced human life, to continue to use said taboos as if a workable and functioning belief, is not just arrogant, but dangerous.
            You can’t continue to have human beings insist the world is flat, when it isn’t.
            You can’t have people insist that women are unfit to lead, or are only worthy of objectification.
            You can’t insist that people of color deserve harsh treatment on the say of an ancient text.
            And the same is true for gay people as well.
            The Bible will get no respect as long as it’s an instrument of restraint on human endeavor to live and work beyond it’s limitations on so many of us.
            Change, is necessary. And insisting that one segment of the human race, remain in a way back machine, while the world’s populace enjoys the freedoms that the 21st century allows, is a double standard.

            I can see a double standard from a mile away. And don’t tell me that’s not what it is.

          • Ukulelemike

            Regan, you say you ‘don’t like being restrained’, and yet, that is exactly what it is to be a human-from our youngest age we are taught to restrain ourselves, not to live according to our passions and emotions alone-we don’t deny them, but we keep them in their proper place. To do otherwise is just to be an animal.
            It is funny that you have spent so much time to argue against what the author of this article, a self-professed homosexual who, having found Christ, has chosen to restrain that aspect of himself, understanding it is against what he now knows to be the truth. Have you walked that path? Clearly not-you say you were raised Christian (meaning, I assume, ‘raised in church’, because just because you were raised in a church, doesn’t mean you’re a Christian, any more than being raised in a barn makes you a cow), but you rejected it, not being willing to accept the truth.
            I was in the military, and spent part of that time as a Military police officer on a NAVY base, so I was a first responder, as well-I have dealt with the blood and death and the wickedness of mankind, as you have, but all it did was verify to me the truth of the Bible-that wicked men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. Men wish to shake off the shackles of the Bible, of Christianity, but instead, they just replace it ewith the chains of sin and death. In Christ, there is freedom, freedom from sin, freedom from eternal damnation. No, homosexuality isn’t a sin that makes one ‘more unsaved’ than other sins, but it is difficult, because it is viewed popularly as a ‘lifestyle’ and ‘inevitable’ for some; yet there are many, many former homosexuals who found freedom and release from it in Jesus Christ, who willingly left it and discovered they didn’t have to live that way.
            So before you speak of double standards, you might want to remove the log from your own eye, before you go trying to remove the speck from others’ eyes. You judge us wrong, as intolerant, and in doing so, judge the author, who has found that freedom in Christ, as wrong, also. He has made a choice, and you stand as judge and effectively call him wrong. YOU are the hypocrite.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Gay people don’t stay children, Umike. And therefore no adult should be treated like one.
            I understand about restraining oneself. Obviously, you don’t just hit people because you feel like. You don’t kill because you feel like it.
            But there are baser primitive reactions that the Bible is full of that address innocent behavior, by violence and killing.
            I had a theory in a religion class, that Mary Magdalene was innocent of what the mob accused her of. In real time, in strict Islamic ruling countries, females are murdered over what we’d consider non existent dishonor, or inconsistent social rules.
            I suspect that MM was a woman of considerable social status, and she wore her clothes, and hair or whatever, in such a way she was accused, but there was no jury or peers, or legal protections as we have now.
            Females are still painted with the brush of being sluts, if they end up raped or dress in ways people are offended by.
            There are REASONABLE restraints, because clearly, to restrain certain behavior, betters individuals and society. We don’t accept theft, or adultery for that reason, because the harm to trust and human connection is quite evident.
            However, homosexuality doesn’t require such profound and utter restraint. THAT has been tried, and hasn’t worked well.
            Been quite destructive. Societal distrust of gay people, caused the closet.
            And a closeted gay people can be blackmailed, or other bad things happen, if they cannot live openly with respect to the same standards we expect of heterosexuals.
            Channeling ones’ romantic endeavors responsibly and with commitment.
            Everyone wins.
            But requiring gay people to NOT do even that, or to live as if they were eunuchs, with no feelings, or wants or needs, is dangerously dismissive and unrealistic.
            It’s NOT for everyone. Especially not everyone gay.
            But there hasn’t been much choice, except very lately.
            The opportunity to serve openly in military and paramilitary environments, to marry, to adopt and raise children…this is all worthwhile to SUPPORT.
            Christians really don’t want gay people to have a choice, THAT is abundantly clear.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Another thing I’d like to point out. That there are times I’ve witnessed gay people being spoken to as if they were children. It’s the kind of disrespectful way I know happens from racists, as well as men to women.
            I remember well how racist whites addressed blacks of any age or social status.
            In my own experience with people that are abusive and controlling do that. Especially abusive men to women.
            The quality of communication is that those of us on the receiving end have no more emotional or social status than children, therefore deserve to be spoken to that way.
            In a way, Christian doctrine has dictated that gay people remain perpetual children.
            Children aren’t expected to have romantic, sexual lives.
            Children are taught to believe, and never challenge the religious doctrine they are taught.
            Children aren’t to challenge those who have chosen to be the authority in their lives.
            And children aren’t supposed to be self determined, but their path chosen for them.

            I know what I see in that treatment. I’ve been treated that way myself. And it deserves challenge and judgement because the source of it is specific.
            Tell me then, what IS the log in my eye?

          • Grace

            Just to clarify: the Bible does not say the world is flat. The Bible does not say that women are unfit to lead or worthy only of objectification. The Bible does not call for harsh treatment of people of color.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Grace: chalk your comment up to unnecessary. I didn’t need you to clarify. I know the Bible doesn’t say those things, but certain ignorant people believed those things anyway, and punished those who made discoveries that countermanded what they wanted to believe.
            Using religious doctrine to treat people harshly isn’t new.
            What I’m trying to impart here, is that the Bible seems to regress people.
            Renders them incurious and not wanting to know or learn anything else if it doesn’t square with Biblical doctrine.

            And for many like myself, the Bible is NOT enough and never was. It’s not and never was the only path, nor is God and Christ.
            Some things are known better than the Bible has to offer.
            It’s not a slam on the Bible, it’s a simple reality now.

          • P0xi

            Lyle, didn’t you just say that the Bible is unchanging?

            But now because of some fulfillment of the law, it changed?

            Sheesh, the word is on the tip of your tongue, isn’t it?
            You know the word.

            C

            U

            L

            T

            That’s right Lyle. You are seeing the truth slowly.
            Be brave, and hold onto the love in your heart.

            But accept the truth.
            The truth is that empirical evidence is worth more than the Bible.
            Logic is worth more than the Bible.
            The feelings and words of a real person who is alive today is worth more than the feelings and words of a person who is dead, and wrote the Bible thousands of years ago.

            Respect the living, and honor the dead. But do not favor the dead over the living.
            When it comes down to it, you have chosen to live a life filled with judgement towards the innocent, because you falsely believe that they are evil, despite causing no real harm. Don’t play word games with me. Gay people do no harm to other people, except where real harm is concerned. You can’t fool me. There is evil in this world. This evil harms the innocent, and ruins a person’s life because they are judged for non-harmful actions.

            You are the evil one, Lyle. I see it. I have the eyes of a child, and I see the evil in your words. I see each and every lie you speak. You do not know they are lies, but I can see it plain as day.

            Repent and see the truth.
            You need to make the decision that will change your life and your entire world.
            You need to do this, or you are nothing more than a brainwashed cultist without a mind.

          • TROLL TROLL TROLL! TROLL RIGHT HERE!

          • sandraleesmith46

            Which part of “abomination” is it you don’t grasp? God does NOT condemn a behavior, the proceed to create a person incapable of acting and feeling in any other way. It is that behavior which you need to repent, not “explore” or “teach”. No human is built or meant to live in that practice. The OT execution was rescinded when Jesus gave us each the opportunity to repent our sins and be restored to relationship with God. But that does NOT, and never will, include continuing in the condemned (sinful) behavior and thought patterns. After that point, your comments seem to be an indictment of God for not allowing your continued rebellion against Him, and applying His stamp of approval to it. He doesn’t do that for any sin, be it any sexual activity outside the marriage of 1 man to 1 woman, or theft, or murder (including abortion), or any of the rest. Why, then, should you get a pass?

          • Regan DuCasse

            sandralee: I told you, I know what the Bible says about homosexuality, but it does NOT square with reality.
            And once you really know gay people without an ulterior motive, you’d know that.
            You’re emphatic, but you don’t know what you’re talking about because you haven’t put the time in.
            Tell me something, if you’d never been to medical school, to you argue with a surgeon that you know better how to remove an appendix because you read the Bible?

            Do you argue with a black person experienced with Jim Crow, that you know better about dealing with racism than they do, because you read the Bible?

            Or would you argue with a forensic crime researcher, not just versed in all human behavior, but who has close relationships with people who are gay, and your ONLY reference is a Biblical one?

            Why are you arguing about it with someone who knows actual gay people better than you do?
            There are definitions, delineations, and qualifiers regarding harmful human behaviors and benign ones.
            I just mentioned already what those distinctions are.
            And you choose to ignore them.
            See, treating another the way you’d be treated means you have to learn from the other side, as much as you want that side to learn from you.
            But I’ve HEARD your side, all my life.
            I was raised that way and if I’m older than you, longer than you have.
            The universe is bigger than the Bible. There is more that has been learned, needed and people are better for going beyond it and getting to know each other than just from a book.
            I’m not demanding a pass: YOU are.
            You don’t want to reciprocate, no matter how you sound to someone more experienced than you.

          • sandraleesmith46

            It sounds more as if you are asking/ expecting to be treated as YOU want,regardless how right or wrong your behavior may be. Discipline is never pleasant or comfortable, but it is necessary at times. What you appear to be expecting is for Christians, in particular, to enable your continued practice of that which we know tio be sin, and which I, as a nurse, also know to be as unhealthy on physical and psychological levels as on the spiritual level (sin). Enabling any unhealthy activity is, in fact, a most unloving (hateful) act. Is that what you REALLY want? Wouldn’t it be kinder and healthier to treat you with honesty and genuine love that cares enough to point out the harmful path you’re on?

          • Regan DuCasse

            What I expect isn’t unreasonable, nor unworkable because you DO accept it in heterosexuals.
            The discipline you demand of gay people IS unreasonable, and unworkable because it is a double standard, that requires expectations that most people shouldn’t have demanded of them, no matter what their gender or orientation.
            It sets them up, literally, for affection starvation and ideas about gender that’s already damaged all kinds of people because of the rule and enforcement set up differently around gender.
            Unhealthy activity is unhealthy for everyone. I just said that gay people benefit from monogamy, commitment and family growth as much as heterosexuals do.
            And by being encouraged in that, are better integrated into society at large.
            This all started because Bradley mentioned that his spontaneous act of comfort and affection towards another man, made him suspected in his church community.
            That is a HORRIBLE way to live.
            It’s gotten children beaten, and at risk for other things.
            What you insist is unhealthy, ISN’T for gay people. It’s just as healthy.
            With the same guidelines, it’s even less risky because there is no pregnancy that will occur.
            No, it’s NOT kind to have hetero people surround someone gay, with their pair bonding, marriages, children…
            And then tell a gay people, NOT for you. No, not even hugs and kisses and holding hands with your same gender.
            I said already, it’s like inviting hungry gay people to a feast, but only giving them crumbs, while everyone else gorges themselves and wastes a lot of the fare.
            It’s cruel to do that.

            The more you insist that even committed, monogamous love and responsibility to another is unhealthy and wrong, the more people are obviously PROVING otherwise.
            And this is why you and your beliefs are losing in the court of public opinion.
            You have no proof or evidence of what you’re saying.

          • I said I won’t respond to trolls, but I must correct you on something. You said “This all started because Bradley mentioned that his spontaneous act of comfort and affection towards another man, made him suspected in his church community.” This is wrong. The community didn’t suspect me of anything. One man did, and he is my friend. You make it sound as if there is some kind of gay gestapo out to get me. There isn’t. This man knows of my past and how bad it was. He was just making sure I hadn’t gone back into that lifestyle.
            And they were all with me when I went for my HIV test. I asked no one that I would be HIV free, just that I would conquer the spirit of fear which had taken over me. There was no judgment. Period. I had many people praying for me, including K-LOVE national Christian radio. There was no judgment. Period. And I think that is what galls you. None of the propaganda of the LGBT community or your rants is true. Period. Friday night, I went out with several brothers from my church, and they all know my past. None of them expected me to be or do anything but be a friend. Period.
            Proverbs 26:1-12
            You think you know everything, but you don’t. If the stroke taught me one thing it is this: despite all I thought I knew (the Hebrew, facts about the bible, all the kings of Israel, etc), I knew nothing.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Okay Bradley, so correct me.
            One man suspected you. There is something very wrong with being suspected at all.
            And there are you histrionics again: I never made it sound like there was a gay gestapo out to get you.
            “He was just making sure I hadn’t gone back to the gay lifestyle.”
            What do you think the ‘gay lifestyle’ actually is?
            Let me guess: promiscuity, risk of disease, morally rudderless and disconnected from romantic commitment?
            Again: all stereotypes, heterosexuals fail at this also and don’t call it “the heterosexual lifestyle”.
            Just because that was the experience of a few, doesn’t mean it defines all.
            You should know better than that.
            And I tried to connect to you on the basis of being a misrepresented minority. Also having gone through life threatening health problems.
            But instead of doing so, you were quick to name call. Even after another thread was started, you came in casting stones and being nasty.
            I did you the courtesy of spending several hours I’ll never get back reading your blog.
            And I told you that I came away thinking that gay people that commit to being Christian seem to all tell the same story.
            And not much of it involves other aspects of what life is. Like professional experience, volunteer work, all I get are sermons, and Scripture quoting and so much so, that it’s hard to believe you have the ability to spontaneous speak for yourself.
            You have been FAR more uncivil to me, than the other way around.
            I’ve never called you out of your name, or made inappropriate cracks.
            The proof is in my comments.
            All you’ve proven to me, BJM…is that at the end of the day, I’ve never needed to lean on religious discipline as much as you.
            And just because you were a mess and out of control, doesn’t mean other people are and have the same needs as you.
            I know I don’t know everything.
            I have said over and over again WHAT I’m trying to learn.
            And YOUR lesson, I’ve already had.
            But there HAS been judgement on gay people in general here, very negative wrongful judgement that hasn’t come from me.
            Indeed, it would be refreshing if gay people weren’t judged.
            So if you experienced a non judgmental environment in K-Love, GOOD!
            So YOUR judgement on me, has been exceptionally wrong.
            But, because you can’t unring the insults, name calling and essential short fuse you seem to have along with a histrionic nature, I’ll just leave it at that must be who you are.
            If it’s not, then you have the option of reversing that, just by showing some manners.

          • Regan is a troll and an activist, trying to get a rise out of you. I recommend you don’t respond to her. Don’t feed the troll. Period.

          • sandraleesmith46

            Thanks for the heads-up. I won’t feed it further.

      • sandraleesmith46

        There are no “gay” people in the real world. And the Biblical “limits” were set in place because God knows our needs, as well as weaknesses. We are never to rely on our reasoning or our feelings for Truth, in any arena, most especially this particular one, because they are inherently deceptive! There aren’t double standards here; the single standard applies to all sins, of which homosexual rebellion against God’s plan is but one. The problem is not that “social good” hasn’t been done for practitioners of homosexuality, but that they haven’t yet repented their rebellion and entered into grace. It’s not for God to change, but for us, as sinful humans, to do so, starting with repentance, which means a 180 degree about face from our former behaviors accompanied by genuine remorse for them and a willingness to be transformed from our former selves into Jesus’ image. Doesn’t matter what the sin is, it’s the same process for each and every one of us! God allows you free will to choose, even if you choose shell as your end point. It’s not what He wants for you, but He will allow you to make that choice. However, He will not “bless” you in that choice, and that seems to be what you’re expecting.

        • Regan DuCasse

          “There are no gay people in the real world”.
          Homosexuality has existed in all human life, since all human life began.
          Gay people don’t practice it, sexual orientation is inherent in all of us. And there is no morals required because gender is morally neutral. And homosexuality is only defined by gender.
          You live in a world of immense diversity and variation, an you say that?
          Also, I just pointed out also how our human progress came about since the Biblical times recorded, because we needed to define and allow for being educated and well informed in order to make that progress.
          On Election Day, let me remind you of how little a woman could determine her own destiny in the Bible.

          “We are never to rely on our reasoning or our feelings, for Truth”.
          Reasoning that’s advanced human life beyond Earthly boundaries, or feelings like courage, curiosity, empathy, and restrained the reactionary violence that the Bible instructs? Even towards one’s own children for being ‘rebellious’?

          Especially in this arena, because they are deceptive.
          You’re trying to make me believe the Biblical teaching, that’s from a world and culture that was limited in scope in comparison. And people didn’t know or wanted to know anything of more depth to do with homosexuality or why gay people exist and their intent and purpose.
          But I’m supposed to deny the empirical experience of millions, in THIS day and age, as deceptive.

          Excuse me, sandralee: but let me remind you of what’s tangible and what’s intangible.
          Your intangible can’t trump the tangible. It’s that simple. And I have no fear of the intangible, and all your talk of some punishment for not repenting.
          I have borne witness to the kinds of people who’d turn on their neighbor, turn them in, watch happily someone being stripped and whipped.
          It’s like the Salem witch trials in here with the attitudes you and your cohorts have.
          Even pretense of civility goes out of the window, and reason and hysteria easily take over because you get so worked up over an offense that never happened.
          The day you give up voting, leaving your house without your head covered, anything you do that’s 21st century and not five BC, and the day you’re willing to give up every Constitutional and Bill of Rights protections you have, for the Biblical law you think should only apply to gay people..
          get back to me.
          You’re just another in a long, line of Christians whose DISOBEDIENCE to “treating another as you’d be treated” proves inconvenient for you.
          How humans treat one another, is always going to matter. And when you treat and are willing to, set up ONLY gay people for their distinction, in a way you wouldn’t put up with, then you’ve lost all credibility period.

    • sandraleesmith46

      Hypocrisy alienates, yes. But enabling (supporting, encouraging, accepting) unhealthy behavior is probably the single most unloving thing you can do for the practitioner thereof. Agape is unconditional love, but it’s also “tough ” love, an act of will, rather than an emotional response.

      • P0xi

        Sandra, for your own good, I’m gonna tell you something tough.

        You’re in a pyramid scheme cult, and the proof is this:

        If you believe and obey, you are rewarded.
        If you disobey and disbelieve, you are punished.

        Now tell me: Is that a religion for a human, or a religion for a dog?

        • sandraleesmith46

          Your assessment is wrong. Affirming that which is physically, emotionally and spiritually UNHEALTHY is unhealthy for you and whomever you are affirming (read enabling). If my beliefs disturb you, perhaps you should recheck your own!

          • P0xi

            Answer my question.

            Don’t play a fool. Don’t try to dodge this.

            Is your religion a cult? Do you obey like a robot? Do you feel like you’re righteous just because you follow rules from an ancient book? And truly, do you have a desire to convert people, or get people to follow your cult’s rules?

            You’re clearly in a cult, and you’re the one who is suffering.

            You used the word ‘disturb’, because you are disturbed inside. You know what I’m saying. You know it’s true. Trying to deny it just makes you look like a deranged cultist, ranting about sins and hellfire.

            Are you insane, or just brainwashed?

            If you’re insane, then I’m wasting my time talking to you.
            If you are only brainwashed, then you still have hope.

            You are in a cult, and you need help badly.

            Stop believing in all this hogwash. You look like a complete idiot when you believe in all this supernatural bogus.

          • sandraleesmith46

            No, to ALL of your assertions!

          • P0xi

            Your faith is weak. Otherwise you could answer me with honesty in your heart.

            If you weren’t wrong, you could easily answer me with an original answer.

            Saying no, or just repeating some bullshit cult-book verse will just make you look like more of a loony cultist.

            You’re wrong. Otherwise you could simply answer me honestly, without a single lie or reason to obscure the truth. How strange it is that you reveal you know the truth, but you are too afraid to face it.

            There is no god.

          • TROLL ALERT!!!

          • sandraleesmith46

            I did; YOU refused to accept my response.

      • P0xi is another TROLL!!!

        • sandraleesmith46

          Or a homosexual or both!

  • Regan DuCasse

    I remember going on a ride along patrol with an N. Hollywood, female LAPD officer. It’s only sergeants that can roll a car by themselves, so there are only two of us in the cruiser.
    Anyway, we were called to a death at a house. Evidently, a very elderly member of the family, died in her sleep. She was over 90 years old.
    The family however, were Jewish and French speaking. The sgt, was Spanish speaking Latina, but I however was the one that spoke French.
    The family had called a special unit of Orthodox Hebrew First Responders to the house, so that the death could be attended to according to their faith.
    The dead, in their tradition, have to be buried within 24 hrs.
    (sun to sun, or moon to moon, so to speak)
    I conveyed all this to the SGT, and also to the family about a possible wait.
    When these things happen to the very elderly, even one who hadn’t been ill, it’s important for the city ME to make a determination that it’s a natural death.
    But I’ve seen this before in other situations where faith communities and their sudden incidents and accidents, run counter to investigation.
    For example, sometimes autopsies or lengthy cold storage is not acceptable in these communities.
    There is a difference between the way a family wants to handle a suicide, as opposed to a natural death. And so on.
    And recently, the Pope gave some kind of dispensation on bodily cremation.
    But he’s never done so on birth control, even though birth control is anathema to religious teaching, it’s still a very necessary and healthy part of living too.

    There are many things that are necessary to human life and well being, that are religious taboos.
    I’ve said before that with human progress being furthered by experience and courage, those ancient Biblical cultures would never understand what we’ve accomplished now.
    This isn’t just moral relativism, but how we are to live with each other, and seeing each other as we really are, not as such cultures wish we would be.
    I’ve mentioned before those things that all have the same result, and would never be right, no can be made to be.
    Because they are a matter of harming another human being that damages public safety and trust.
    And yet, homosexuality is put in the same category as those things, instead of that which has proven to be life affirming.
    These are the Christians you’re talking about Matt. They see that distinction between moral sins, and religious sins.
    The former, is a terrible detriment. Committed BY individuals ON others.
    The latter, have been understood to not be like that. Except in the Christian sense, as defined by people who haven’t experienced what he have in this 21st century and aren’t afraid to.

    I’ve also mentioned that the type of Christians you seem to prefer to keep you from straying, look to me like people that invite hungry gay people to a feast, and allow them only crumbs as the heterosexual others gorge themselves and waste much.
    That is to say, that gay people are expected to eschew romantic involvements, or ever getting a long term, monogamous relationship, while witnessing hetero people all around them partnered and being supported in doing so.
    And it’s not supposed to bother you.
    Indeed, you’re expected to like it, and keep on singing the praises of your singleton existence.
    You’re charged with going home and taking your Bible in hand and being soothed by that as the primary alternative.
    I can very well understand a person dissatisfied with whatever human relationships were profoundly disappointing or difficult.
    But what I’m learning is that, even Christians have started to figure out that THEY want to learn more, and do better by the gay in their community.
    It’s a lot less self serving on the part of a Christian. It allows for more to be seen and revealed to them, though the equal access and support that gay people have asked for.
    I’ve also said before, that nothing in Scripture is going to be different then when I read the 20 other times.
    I know it as well as I know the Shakespeare I was taught to appreciate and how I got my name.
    I prefer to hear from gay folks not influenced the way you are. And I have a right to that.
    There has always been a degree of courage to go against the grain of Christian influence. But one can really be the better for it.

    • Ooooh you! You just need a great big hug! And Xanax. Lots and lots of Xanax.

      • Regan DuCasse

        If you wanted to help your case, Bradley keep doing what you’re doing.
        I have no reason to expect anything more from you than personal unnecessary attacks.
        You’re just proving that a civil conversation is impossible with you.
        And nothing more.
        And this is exactly why Christians are going to be ignored. Because eventually, when a person isn’t following your party line and challenges you, things go sideways REALLY fast.
        You don’t have the moral or intellectual stamina for the deal you signed on for.

        • Just trying to have a sense of humor about the whole thing, but I can see you have none, and I’m sorry if I offended you.

          You try to have an ‘intellectual’ discussion about things, and yet the beliefs of anybody who doesn’t subscribe to your way of thinking is automatically dismissed as the outdated ways of an ancient belief. I didn’t come this way of thinking easily, as I was not brought up in this faith. Quite the opposite was true, as my only exposue to religion was when I visited my father and his wife during the summer (you might know this if you had done more than skimmed over my blog).

          I never questioned the existance of God, but I certainly didn’t like Him either. I saw Him as a horrible monster that was in the business of smiting; add to that the suicide of my best friend, my mother’s drug addiction (she was molested), my father’s alcoholism and to top it off, figuring out I was gay. I was a mess.

          I didn’t come to the Lord until I was about to take my own life. I saw the Bible my father had sent me, that I had thrown under the bed out of anger. Why did I need it for? I was going to hell for being gay.

          I opened it up to Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” It didn’t say anything about being gay. So I gave myself to the Lord that night. I had clinical depression. The next day, it was gone. Totally. For the first time in the seven years after David’s death I was happy.
          I joined the church across from where I lived. I tithed regularly and led two to Christ. But I still had an attraction to men, which I didn’t understand. Then we had a guest speaker who delivered a hellfire and damnation sermon and declared from the pulpit that “all gays will burn in hell”. The whole congregation gave a resounding amen. I quit going. No one came by to see why I had quit.
          I delved into the homosexual lifestyle, hard. I won’t go into the details but it was bad. Then two things happened: a man tried to rape me, and another man offered me money to have sex. I began trying to get away from the life. I saw many men commit suicide. Other had substance abuse problems, others went to prison for trying to support their habits by criminal activity. I had a boyfriend who would show up at the most inopportune moments.
          I went celibate after a coworker had to be hospitalized after a serious injury due to gay sex. This was twelve years ago. I had a lot of bitterness and anger at Christians, and would not go to church if you paid me (of course I was there to be seen on Christmas and Easter).
          Then the stroke happened four years ago. My mind was completely erased, so much so that I only knew my name (you called this a ‘health setback’). I was paralyzed on my right side. I was nearly put into a nursing home so that I could just die. They decided to try therapy instead.
          I started recovering and was able to go home a month later. My wife (yes a gay man can be married) suggested I go back to church. I knew I was angry but I didn’t know why, so instead of arguing (couldn’t talk much anyway) I relented. I began my walk with Christ from a wheelchair.
          A couple of weeks later I found out that I was gay from my internet browsing history and that I had an addiction to porn. I was angry again, but as I had no answers from the LGBT community or my so called friends I went back to church. I had to go through the process of relearning everything I thought I knew and realized I knew nothing.
          Many things have happened since then. I discovered David’s suicide again (that was very hard, as I relived it like it was yesterday). God showed me where the grave was (never had been as I had gotten sick at the news); He told me that he had a brother and what his brother’s name was (I found him in Houston, pastoring a church); I got myself tested for HIV (I had to overcome the spirit of fear); had to learn that God wasn’t playing some kind of divine joke on me, but rather that I was His child.
          These are things you might dismiss as the ramblings of a religious fanatic, and you may be right; but what if you aren’t? What if God set up rules for everybody, clearly spelled out in the Ten Commandments. What then? Should some of us be allowed to break one of them because we find it uncomfortable?
          God didn’t ask me to be straight. He said only to love Him. He said only to serve Him. How can I serve God and the religious edict du jure? I will either love one master or the other. So I either follow the teachings of man and the LGBT community or God. I choose God.
          I know you will denegrate me as a bigot, a homophobe, a betrayer of the LGBT community and whatever else you can come up with. Been called much worse. Also this, and this is personal: how can anyone who is gay trust anything you say when you are neither gay or male, by your own admission. You say that you are qualified because you empathize with us. I empathize with the black community, but you would be very offended if I decided that I spoke for them, because I have white skin. I am not qualifed to speak for the blacks, as you are not qualified to speak for gays.
          Finally this: Proverbs:26:1-12. I think this applies to you, as it once applied to me.

          • Regan DuCasse

            I DID read your blog, Bradley. And you took a nasty dig as you already had.
            Own it.
            I WAS brought up in the faith. Which makes Christians constantly ordering me to read the Bible is more than redundant and unnecessary.
            It’s been read, and read and read. I’ve gone to church, and temple…even a Sikh temple in my neighborhood once.
            I’ve been to church my whole life. I have a Bible.
            So what point is there in Christians telling me I need to read it, a hundred different ways?
            I haven’t questioned the existence of God in THESE exchanges, not ONCE.
            I have expressed a belief in God, in fact.
            And what I know about homosexuality and gay people, has nothing to do with what I personally believe, but WHAT IS.
            The issues of losing a friend to suicide, people you depend on their addictions…
            In all of these descriptions of other people’s serious problems, ONLY gay people are lumped in with it as if their orientation is comparable TO addiction.
            And further, what YOU and many others describe as “the gay lifestyle” is falling into a trap that many others have set for them.
            That is, when you keep hearing the same negative messaging about a factor you didn’t create, or have control over having, those negatives become your destiny because you’re told that’s what it is.
            You’re talking to ME, a black female. My whole life has been some form of objectification or another in which being propositioned, or physically assaulted is an experience and risk I take and have every day of my life.

            And my kind hasn’t any more value than gay people do. But the damnation comes, when those who control that value, also control the religious messaging too.
            If you spoke of the black community, as if any stereotypes was all you knew of THEM and their ONLY way of being, yeah that WOULD be offensive.
            If you spoke of the black community as an invasive, unwelcome part of humanity, yes that would be offensive and untrue.
            As would telling me that our color is the curse of Ham, so therefore deserved to be enslaved or segregated because the Bible said so.
            I don’t speak in NEGATIVE messaging about gay people as sinners, required to defer any romantic or sexual happiness.
            THAT is why I’m trusted speak for the gay community.
            You however, and a few others here, have spoken only in stereotypes, as if hypersexual activity, disease and emotional problems are all that’s in store for gay people.
            I can be trusted not to do that. And NO ONE should speak of a group that way, it’s damaging and dangerous.
            Your experience is similar to my own. I know of few people who haven’t experienced tragedy because of drugs. Losing friends to disease.
            Over coming health problems. I have them too. I’m on my third pacemaker since age 31, I was diagnosed with lupus and that’s caused life threatening events in my life.
            But at no time, is being heterosexual to blame for it, because of religious doctrine.
            These are considered separate issues from my personal character.
            Whereas, gay people’s problems keep getting recycled to their orientation, as if the solution is, if they don’t engage in any romantic endeavors as gay people, then they’ll be a lot better off.
            I’m still heterosexual, regardless of an active sex life or not.
            It’s difficult to be in relationships because things are trending towards people in general being so selfish, emotionally immature and without the tools for being trustworthy and loyal.
            I don’t appreciate your ‘humor’ about me needing Xanax.
            Between us, I’ve handled life’s speed bumps a lot better than you. And further, working in a crime scene photography unit takes a person of considerable mettle to handle such gruesome work.
            What I’ve done to stay grounded, is to surround myself with funny, amazing, talented and loving FRIENDS.
            I do alternative jobs that are fun, and keeps me with an industry I like to be around, such as film and television.
            A great many of my friends are gay and transgender. And they are also much more well adjusted than the parade of folks that are usually on this site, or past ex gay discussion sites.
            I’ve only had situational depression, caused by specific and difficult acute events in my life. But I got through them without blaming my orientation, or using substances that aren’t healthy for anyone.
            I’m an ordinary woman. Just very committed to the important notion, that gay people being well known, beyond the stereotypes and traps is long past it’s due.
            Young gay people can have a shot at avoiding the trap you fell into.
            It’s only right, because Christians have had their turn.
            Just as you shouldn’t rely on any stereotypes about women, or Jews…or anyone else whose misrepresentation is still dangerous to members of that group.
            I shouldn’t have to ask that the same not be done about gay people.

          • Well here we are in another stupid debate. One which I want no part of. You believe that all gay people should love themselves and do whatever they want; and you rant about it constantly. You claim to have read the blog, but you seem to dismiss it out of hand, I personally don’t know. I do know that you have either ignored my story above or just dismiss it as the ramblings of a religious fanatic of an ancient religion that should be done away with.
            I can only tell you of my past and hope you can understand where I come fom and why I believe the way I do. You say that you were raised in faith, but do you have a relations for with with Jesus Christ? And if so, how come He tells me one thing and you the exact opposite? We can’t both be right. So who is correct; the religious fanatic or the one who wants people to indulge in a lifestyle that lets one be ‘free’?
            I have said before that I question your motives, and I still do. You may have been brought up in faith, but you don’t believe it now for whatever reason. You say you believe in God, but which god? The one Who sent Jesus Christ to redeem all mankind of their sins, or the one who says we can do whatever we feel like? if you believe in the One who sent Jesus Christ, then surely you believe that He can forgive sins and there is something to forgive.
            If you believe we are perfect the way we are, then Proverbs 26:1-12 applies to you. God bless!

          • Regan DuCasse

            I wasn’t talking to you in the first place. You threw the first stone.
            No Bradley, I didn’t dismiss you out of hand as a religious fanatic, I saw your experience as one that is shared by many as a means of fatigue, desperation and most of all, not knowing how to navigate being gay in a world that treats being gay so negatively.
            In more ways than you give me credit for, I could relate to your experience and explained why.
            And you’re putting words in I didn’t say when you claim I “should do whatever they want”.
            I know what you mean by that.
            And it’s NOT what I say, nor ever said.
            First of all, it’s NOT a lifestyle and never was.
            It’s an orientation. And a person will be their sexual orientation, regardless of having an active romantic or sex life.
            You don’t call a heterosexual’s romantic life a ‘lifestyle’.
            It’s as inappropriate for them as for gay people.
            When you project “anything they want’ I know you mean, to have sex indiscriminately, without commitment. Or even with it. It’s all the same to you. But in your eyes, gay people are just unthinking, emotionally detached sex fiends, who only pass disease to each other and have no capability of anything other than that, nor shouldn’t.
            Except to eschew all that, and embrace God and Christ and not even THINK about romance with their same gender.
            Or, not even an innocent, comforting pat on the shoulder of another man.
            I DO understand your past and where you come from.
            And where you are, or expect other gay people to be, isn’t any more healthy, and history has taught this.
            That is the part YOU dismiss.
            So your life’s experience being gay wasn’t fun, or helped you develop anything positive.
            So?
            It’s not easy to be gay.
            Not any more than being a black woman from my side of things has ever been.
            Black women are used and abandoned a great deal by men of all kinds of backgrounds.
            And a lot of black people have been engaged in the church for a long time, in order to have some community, and not even then, have their church homes been without suspicion and threat.
            But you’re telling me to still TRUST in Christians.
            But what you fail to understand, is that I might trust in God more than I trust in Christians.
            Ever think of that?

            Why have I come to a profoundly different conclusion than you have, even though our life’s experience isn’t all that different?
            Because I do not FEAR anything, really.
            I am no coward, not intellectually, not morally, not socially.
            I cannot be convinced that something bad will happen to me or my soul, if I don’t follow lock step what I’m TOLD to believe.
            I can absorb, and disseminate a LOT of information. It’s in my nature to be analytical and do heavy research and be patient with the process.
            As I keep saying, Christians have had their say. And say nothing more, nothing ELSE I haven’t heard before, over and over again.
            Every reference to Scripture, is at hand in my house. I ALREADY know all this.
            But what the world DOES not know, and should hear from now, is from gay folks for a change.
            It’s only right and fair, that more than the stereotypes and the simplistic ideas and views, be dispelled through reasoned and rational opportunity to do so.
            Christians running interference, with their repetitiveness, isn’t helping as much as they think or want to see.
            The results ARE that clear to anyone who bothers to look well beyond the easy claims, and take their knowledge and experience further.
            And the Bible IS wrong, as many religious communities have had to realize and understand, those distinctions I’ve already pointed out, between moral sins, and religious sins.
            Conflating one or more for convenience, would be wrong. Because if you start from the wrong assumption, everything else you do to approach a problem, person or situation will be too.
            And this is what Matt has to learn too. That those Christians who have tempered their attitudes about gay people, have gone further and explored more and the RESULTS are going to matter and will have to be respected.
            Gay people can and do benefit from having the opportunity, everyone else does.
            I’m talking about engaging in those things that heterosexuals are not just supported in, but are applauded for.
            Gay people can accomplish the same thing, with the same amount of support for it also.

            So the question to YOU is, why prohibit for gay people, what is supported and applauded when heterosexuals do it?
            THAT is the double standard no decent person should abide.

          • “And the Bible IS wrong…” Thank you for this. By this one statement, you have proven (in your rambling way) who you are, and what your agenda is. I will treasure it always. It is here for all to see. You have proven what I suspected about you, and that Proverbs 26:1-12 totally applies to you. No further discourse is necessary.

          • Regan DuCasse

            You take your cheap shots. And run.
            Can’t have a conversation, with any more background than what a mess you were.
            And nothing else about you or your life, except to praise God and Christ.
            I just asked, how is it that hetero people get supported and applauded for something, that gay people are vilified for?
            Gay people are no longer murdered, but the Bible is still RIGHT about instructing that?
            Couldn’t be bothered, you.
            This is the ONLY subject that brings out the canned Christian, the sermons, the scolds to ‘go read the Bible’.
            And you have proven that when the road really challenges you, you’ll run to that refuge that doesn’t ask nearly as much of you as someone like I would.
            Bye’

          • “And the Bible IS wrong…” YOU said this.

          • “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
            Matthew 10:32-33

          • Regan DuCasse

            That all ya got?
            That’s not much, BJM.
            And that’s the challenge of a Christian. You’ll be tenacious about quoting and saying other people’s words, but there is not a lot of YOU there.
            Don’t need to hear Scripture, I’m looking for the real human being. And spilling one’s guts shouldn’t be confused with that, when that only happens in crisis, or when one is under the influence of something else.
            Bartenders hear as much as ministers. But what they dispense within that capacity is which one takes more advantage of that person in crisis.
            Someone was having a bit of crisis and speaking to you, and your gesture of comfort was seen as suspect.
            THAT is what is truly about why the Christian expectation is so brutal and only looks for guilt and wants to hear guilt and everyone is suspect in their eyes.
            Unless and until they spill their guts and agree how suspect and wrong in life they are.
            And a specific part of our humanity, are the only people more suspect than anyone else.
            I called you out on that, and you insulted first, kept up your suspicious mind, then you run.
            Hit and run, Christian.
            Who needs that? Really?

          • “And the Bible IS wrong…” YOU said this.

          • “Don’t need to hear Scripture…” It just gets better and better!

          • Regan DuCasse

            Oh stop with the histrionics and acting like you uncovered a crime.
            Don’t need to hear Scripture because I’ve HEARD it, all my life, and how many damn times do you think someone is going to hear something for that long, and eventually not have to EVER again because you know it well enough already?
            What I’d like to hear, is SOMETHING else, instead of the canned response that is predictable as the sun coming up in the morning.
            Canned. Got that?

  • Boy, did you step in it now! Angry Activist is liable to log on here any minute and call you a hater, a self loather, a bigot and all the other garbage she can spew, and she is not even a Christian (believing in God is not the same as being a Christian, because even the devil believes in God).
    Still though, you choose to maintain your integrity as I, according to the traditional interpretation of the the scriptures. That is fine. I urge anybody who is SSA to remain faithful to the scriptures and not fall into the deception of a ‘new’ feel good interpretaion. Yes, it is uncomfortable (twelve years now). But it can be done.
    We are called extremests, bigots and a myriad of other things. I was in the Navy and was called worse. Not until I hear it spoken by the Lord Jesus personally will I change my stance. It is better to be safe and follow the scriptures and be assured that Christ knows me than of the alternative.

    • Stacy

      You called it 😉

    • Sandi Luckins

      I think you’ll like this: “This present age is so flippant that if a man loves the Saviour he is a fanatic and if he hates the powers of evil, he is a bigot.” Spurgeon (1834-1892)

    • sandraleesmith46

      Everyone has some such burden to carry, maybe not the same one, but we all have1 that makes it tough to follow the right path, so well done and keep on fighting the good fight.

    • titaniumnape

      What does SSA stand for? peace

      • Same Sex Attracted. I use this instead of ‘gay’, because gay denotes a lifestyle I no longer lead.

        • titaniumnape

          Thank you for the clarification and thank you for glorifying Christ in demonstrating that sin can be overcome though Him. peace

  • Jason Adam

    Thank you for sharing your story and for giving this wonderful perspective. I hadn’t looked at this issue in quite this light, and I appreciate your unique perspective into this. God bless you as you work to further His kingdom in this regard.

  • This confirms everything god has spoken to me. The desires and attractions of homosexuals comes from our sinful nature. There are plenty of scripture that tell us not to follow our human nature and its desires because it is currupted and broken. And our flesh desires to do opposite if what the spirit desires. Its a choice to follow your attractions or to deny your SELF and follow Christ. Its also a mind set. Those who follow after the flesh and its ways have thier mind set on the things of the flesh. Those who r controlled b the spirit have thier minds set on the spirit. We must as people of god keep the connection between us and the spirit living inside us. If we loose that connection we will do and follow things of the flesh. The bible says that those who live according to the flesh shall die. And u cannot b pleasing to god if you are living according to the flesh. The lbgt christian community MUST live by the spirit. Anything else and we will wind up being the many. Where the bible says many will come in my name. Those many are not going to heaven. They are workers of eniquity. We must pray that god will give them revelation about thier human nature and thier flesh. God bless u matt. You are on the right mind set.

    • rchelle_7

      God or GOD, but never god. Little g is for false gods.

      • lydiarosephilpot

        Absolutely, not capitalizing God is a sign of disrespect.

        • P0xi

          Simply platitudes.

          The meaning of the word is what matters, not the respect you give it.

          When a person says god or God or G-d or GOD, it makes no difference if the person is righteous in their heart.

          Don’t be so strict with formalities, or you just look like an insane cultist.

  • Amy

    I don’t disagree with what the article said, but when it’s your own son, do you break fellowship with him?

    • fcb

      Your son will always be your son and your love for him should always be unconditional as is the love from Our Father in Heaven. But ask yourself, does God condone any sin in our lives? As a believer we all sin and the Holy Spirit brings conviction to our sin and we must confess and repent of our sin no matter how often we sin. Pray for your son always, ask the Holy Spirit to convict his heart if he is a believer, if he is not a believer pray for the Lord to save him and bring him to repentance. Do not condone his sin or anyone’s sin, always point them to the Cross. Keep loving your son as The Lord Loves Us even in our sinful state, but as believers we do NOT and SHOULD NOT be content living in our sinful state, but live for the LORD.

      • Amy

        Thank you for your comments. He is a believer and went to a Bible college and led worship in our church where our whole family is very active. I give “pray without ceasing” a new meaning where my son is concerned! He knows the truth. I keep believing that the Truth will set him free!

    • No. That is the last thing your son needs (I know). He needs your love and support. This doesn’t mean that you endorse his lifestyle, and you can not pray the gay away. It is sin nature. One of the hardest things I ever had to do was tell my father that I was SSA (gay). He totally disarmed all the rage and anger I had saved up for him, by telling me he loved me anyway. Things are not perfect between us, but they never are between a parent and a child. But what a child need to hear most, more than anything else is ‘I love you’.

      • Amy

        Thank you. He knows where we stand and the boundaries we’ve set in our home. He also knows that we love him unconditionally.

        • Good! It doesn’t mean you have to give in to what he wants (would you in your right mind give a two year old all the sweet he wants?) But there will come a day when your child will tell you that you are right (I was about 30 when I figured out that my father was correct). Being conflicted about homosexuality and God is difficult at best. If it helps let me tell you what the Holy Spirit told me: God didn’t command me to be straight; to want to be so is coveting what a straight man has. God just wants us to love Him and keep His commandments, even if they make us uncomfortable at times. So I am SSA (gay). It doesn’t mean I love God less, but as our Father, He sets up rules for us to follow, the same ones he set up for everybody. One of the great lies of the LGBT community (and there are so many) is that leaders of Christians and churches are against us. This isn’t true. It took a massive stroke for me to figure this out.

          Sending you a link to my blog…read it in its entirety.

          https://brokenbutredeemedblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/14/introduction/

          • Marcy Orth Ross

            Wonderfully written blog!! I just read the whole thing. Thank you!

          • Amy

            Thank you I’ll check it out.

            My blog is http://www.prayandlove2life.weebly.com if you’d care to check it out. My name is Elizabeth there for privacy reasons.

          • Thank you for this. I believe that we are entering in to a new era, as so many people like me were taught only the excessiveness of God’s wrath and nothing of forgivness. One thing, probably the most important, is to not live in judgement of others; I also learned about forgiveness, because how can straights forgive me when I can’t forgive them.

          • Amy

            Very true!

    • No Amy – you don’t break fellowship with your son. Your son does not need to be fixed and there is nothing in scripture that would condemn a loving, monogamous same sex relationship. Please look closer at what Jen and Brandon Hatmaker are saying. They have spent a lot of time on this. I spent 2 years myself. My son is gay. I have a private FB group for moms of LGBT kids and we have more than 1400 moms in the group. We love and affirm our kids. Feel free to contact me on Facebook. Here is my facebook link https://www.facebook.com/lizdyer1

      • Amy

        I’ll have to disagree with that. I know what scripture says about the subject.

        • Sandi Luckins

          I’ll pray for your difficulties Amy. A question that I don’t need, or ask for a response about, but, if your son were involved in a shop lifting ring, what would you do? Lord forbid, but if it were another immorality, what would you do? Each of these is a sin. Each of these is hurtful to the Lord. Would you treat your son any differently?

          • Amy

            I understand the reason for the questions, but based on the scripture, sexual sin is in a different category.

            And just to answer, if he were involved in illegal activity, he’d be left in jail.

          • Sandi Luckins

            Respectfully Amy, I wasn’t looking for an answer. I just wanted to show you the category of what your son is doing rather than just saying “sin”.
            I think you realize your son is in jail with this bondage this sin has him in, eh?
            I do have a few resources that I hope may help you:
            Homosexuals Anonymous
            Restored Hope Network
            Ex-Homosexuals for Jesus

            And I’m sure there are many, many more. I cannot remember the name, but there is a specific resource for families and parents of homosexuals. I looked them up:
            http://www.pfox.org

            I’m sorry if I came across rudely – was not intended in the least and I was sincere about my prayers for your family.
            I hope that you find help through this difficult time.

          • Regan DuCasse

            PFOX. One of the absolutely worst family associations to address gay members of a family.
            One of the founders is a criminal.
            Way to go Sandi.

            No, PFLAG is a FAR more rational, well known and respected family and friend counseling org.
            http://www.pflag.org

            They are non sectarian, and include people of all faiths and background. They have information and support specifically for Christians and Jews.
            How families are reconciled through this org. has been time honored and saved many families from estrangement and misunderstanding.

          • Sandi Luckins

            Ah, I got the wrong one…..then thank you

          • Amy

            Yes, he’s definitely in bondage, but he doesn’t see it that way. Thank you for your prayers!

      • Hilary Osborne

        Liz, you have been deceived. The Scriptures are clear on this subject. Jen Hatmaker and her husband are departing from the faith, and you are dangerously in line with them. Jen and her husband can say all they want. We do not follow them or human wisdom. We follow the Scriptures.

      • Rachelthemillenial

        No Christian wants to leave their beloved child in sin.
        You must be some other religion. Christianity is about freedom from sin.

  • DucRider

    This is an issue that has always perplexed me because how do you treat the ones in your own family and friend circles on this issue. Do you love them as we are called to love all who sin as Christ did or do you thump on our bibles and repeatedly preach at them about what they are doing is wrong and guarantee alienating them from Christ? Or do we teach them of Christs love and relationship and show them that pursuit and let the Holy Spirit convict as they grow in their own with Jesus as they should, but it’s their path. Every one of us has our own sins that the bible makes reference to as well. Do you perseverate on their homosexuality or do we love them and allow them to grow to Jesus without us sitting on the judges seat and pointing that yardstick to those few scriptural references to their sins while maybe excusing the ones that speak to our own sins? Sin is sin in Gods eyes no matter what it is. If someone’s conversion to Christ is genuine, the time to face that issue will be imminent. I don’t say to throw a wedding or participate in things that exonerate that lifestyle but I don’t think judgemental shunning is the answer either. Thoughts?

    • CCW

      If they refuse to repent and teach others it’s not a sin then what? To say oh just love them doesn’t answer the question and flat out ignores the commands in scripture to break fellowship with any so called brother who is engaged in active unrepentant sexual immorality. (1Cor 5:11).

      So either the Apostle Paul is confused and contradicted his instructions given in 1Corinthians 5:11 when he wrote 1Corintians 13:4-7 or they are connected and the failure isn’t with him or with the commands to break fellowship with those in unrepentant sin.

      Perhaps the failure is that what we call “love” is actually fear of man and a desire to be liked and accepted and not reproached for the gospel. Perhaps what we call love is actually apathy because we care more about being perceived as loving and nice than willing to suffer slander and being seen as “mean” for loving a person enough to take very hard lines with unrepentant sin because it can exclude them from the kingdom (1Cor 6:9-11).

      • DucRider

        I know what it feels like to be a recipient of unfair judgements and then alienation by other saints. Saints that prefer to look into another persons struggle with sin and overlook their own. When I think of a judgemental thought about another person, I am reminded that I need to be looking at the sin in my own and leave the judgements to God. When Paul says to remove oneself from another like you say, I interpret it as living alongside them in their lifestyle but not to shun them in my midst. Doing this does not make me aid and abet their sin. Jesus hung out with the dregs of society more than the Pharisees and taught kindness, forgiveness and loving our brother and He never said “after they shun their sins and become perfect”. I have a very small circle of people that like me and am considered a non conformist socially, maybe even a social outcast so I do not do things to go along with the system. I speak and question things much to the chagrin of the religious establishment and when I ask the pressing questions to matters like these, I get two types of responses….yours and the crickets. Anyway it is what it is. I would rather show kindness, gentleness and goodness than judgement because God already told me that He has that job and not me. If anyone were to ask me if I thought it was okay to be homosexual, I would honestly respond no but that doesn’t mean to treat them as a leper or an outcast is okay.

        • CCW

          I can relate to that. It’s why Jesus warned to us to get the log out before going for the speck. It’s also why in Galatians Paul says: “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.” Gal 6:1.

          There is also nothing wrong with questions. I’m by nature like you. I ask questions can be skeptical and lean towards being non-conformist and anti-authoritarian. Ask anyone who knew me up through my 20’s 🙂

          But let me ask a few questions. Throughout the NT there are warnings of false teachers and false brethren who destroy the church so what are we to do with those and how do they apply here? Also, there are numerous places where those who are elders are told to shepherd and guard the church against these kinds of individuals in order to protect the church from them so how do those apply? See for example: Jude 8-16, Rom 16:17-18, Galatians 1:6-9, Titus 3:10, Acts 28:28-31.

          So let’s say the sin or false teaching has been established following the pattern given in Matthew 18 and it comes to a point where there is both a refusal to repent and an intention to either continue doing that sin or teaching that false thing.

          What do you do? What do the elders of that body do?

          This is the issue being raised in the article. A sin and false teaching that says it isn’t a sin is creeping into and gaining a foothold in the church.

          I don’t like it anymore than you…but to not pursue formal discipline that could end with the breaking of fellowship is to be complicit in those sins. For example: “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (2 John 10-11).

          So I understand where you’re coming from. But if someone wants to say they are a disciple of Jesus WHILE actively engaging in sin and/or teaching things that are false you are commanded by Paul, John and other NT writers and thus by God himself to break fellowship with them.

          Again, I’m not saying I like any more than you. But the teaching on these matters in the NT is clear.

          Now, this all of course is the last of last options after every other avenue has been exhausted which takes time. But it still stands as instructions the church has been given in how to deal with those who say they are disciples of Jesus yet remain unrepentant and committed to teaching false things.

          • P0xi

            Warnings of false teachers?

            Heheh, yeah, I guess it’d be troublesome if you ended up joining the wrong cult.

            Or maybe you have already, and that’s why most Christians are some of the meanest people I’ve ever met.

        • P0xi

          You tell them it’s not ok to be a homosexual?

          Then you have issued judgement.
          You don’t look like a god to me, so I must ask you this:

          How dare you?

    • P0xi

      DucRider, if you think thumping your BIble is going to do anything useful, I think you are a true cultist.

      If you want to help people, show them love. This should be obvious, but you’re already debating whether or not to try to manipulate people with religion.

      You’re basically on the verge of evil, but you can just step back.
      Let people live their own life. Do not judge.

  • fcb

    Matt, your message is right on and I for one am thankful to the Lord that you stay true to God’s Word and preach it as it is written without compromise even when it hurts. Discipline is what a Disciple of The Lord has to do first in our lives, then pray for and share the truth to those around us. We all must remember the road to life is a hard, narrow road. I read just recently where Franklin Graham shared a story that his mother Ruth shared with him about the two roads in life, the wide easy road and the narrow hard road. Franklin always felt that the wide road was like a large freeway everything moving fast and easy and at high speed, but the narrow road was a winding, hard and slow road. His mother told him she believed that the narrow road was right in the middle of the wide road but we walk on it in the opposite direction of everyone on the wide road. It dawned on me that is such a great way to see that, all those on the wide road fleeing past us look at us like, what’s wrong with you people running opposite everyone else, don’t you see your going against the grain, against the majority of us. Let us keep walking on the narrow road and please keep preaching the truth.

    • Sandi Luckins

      nice analogy

    • P0xi

      If words in the Bible seem evil to you, perhaps they are evil?

      Don’t doubt your heart so easily.

      When it comes down to it, it’s more likely that the Bible is wrong, and that your heart is right.
      God designed your heart. Humans designed the Bible.

      I think listening to your heart will always trump dusty old books. If you disagree, I don’t think you’ll find a single passage in your Bible that will convince me. I only seek righteous words and laws that provide love and joy to all people.

      The Bible seems to make enemies of the innocent, and friends with the guilty.
      I wonder why that is.

      • fcb

        “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” Jeremiah 17:9-10

        If anyone of us live our lives as an unregenerate man, the statement quoted above is were we live until we die. Only God can give us a heart of flesh as we come to receive His Son Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord. Jesus mentioned so many times that those who rejected him had hearts of stone and only those who believe will have softened hearts of flesh. To live by our unregenerate hearts as a source to listen to and to reject God’s word will lead only to death, both physically and more importantly spiritually. Rethink what you believe..

      • TROLL ALERT!!!

  • Sandi Luckins

    good column Matthew. May people hear the Lord through you on this.

  • Jerry Dodson

    Wow. So glad you are willing to withstand the wolves. When so-called Christians are pushing you back into sin, this nation has hit rock bottom.

  • ehhhidts

    ” the clear teaching of Scripture”

    LOL, if you say so. All those denominations out there with all their disagreements about everything, why, it’s just because they’re rejecting the clear teaching of Scripture, unlike you, Matt! It must be so nice to realize that you know it all.

    I predict that when you undergo some sort of theological shift in the future – i.e. you currently advocate Position A but will later advocate Position B – you will then go from thinking that Position A is biblically mandated to thinking that Position B is biblically mandated, and that only those weaker in the faith adhere to Position A. And you WILL shift at some point, you will not remain static.

    • Regan DuCasse

      Well, yep that’s pretty much what I keep coming to, after more than two decades of dealing with those avowed Christian ex gays, or those heterosexuals who support it.
      The personality involved are those of endless and intense need for constant validation.
      The experience as a gay person, especially a very young one, will manifest in much arrested development and the religious discipline, restrains growth and emotional maturity as a gay person.
      That struggle is with the prejudices and misleading of the general public, than a flaw, brokenness (which is a common word among this crowd) within a gay person.
      To them, the gay factor IS the sin, flaw, pathology, addiction, crime, emotional twist…
      The WRONGFUL definitions go on and on and on.
      And as I’ve said, if you make a wrongful diagnosis, based on an assumption and not a reality, then you’ll apply the wrong treatment.
      And that level of incompetence can’t be accepted by anyone.

    • Regan DuCasse

      Thanks so much for the reference to Michael Glatze. He and I had many emails between us when he was the editor of XY magazine. I’d had a particular concern for teen boy who’d been nearly killed in an anti gay beating. The boy had been left in critical condition, and he had some kind of serious kidney illness and was awaiting a transplant.
      I was really perplexed by Glatze’s 360 degree turn.
      And wondered what prompted it, other than the stereotypical canned reason that Christians always throw at us.

    • Rachelthemillenial

      What a dild0

  • Joshua Carpenter

    What a great read.

    You answered a hot question with biblical truth. You did well on this matt. Great job!

  • Shane

    Amen.

    And don’t think for a moment this thorn can’t go away. Everyone wants to believe their own private temptation is related to Paul’s thorn in the flesh, but temptation itself is the thorn, not any specific one, and you are not defined by your temptations.

    As your senses are trained to discern evil, you will more and more be repulsed rather than attracted to this behavior. God does not leave us forever in ridiculous temptations. The temptation is not YOU. YOU are not this urge. And once you learn enough about this urge, it will offend you as it does most everyone else, and it will stop.

    MANY people have not just stopped engaging in homosexuality, but left all or most of the temptation far behind. Don’t listen to the naysayers. Of course a habit of any kind can be difficult to leave behind, but you can and it sure looks like you will.

  • Russ Westbrook

    May God continue to keep you faithful brother. Your courage and faith are inspiring.

  • Kepha Hor

    Excellent.

  • Thank you Matt. You probably don’t remember me, but I interviewed you a couple of times in 2011 when you first became a believer. Things sure have changed in our world and in Christendom since then, haven’t they?

    Your testimony is incredible, and I am so glad you are using your voice to glorify God and point people to His glory!

  • Jody Jorns

    Thank you, Matt, for your boldness in speaking truth…in love. I find myself surrounded with friends, colleagues and family members dealing with homosexuality. Your words, knowing they are coming from someone in the struggle, provide me with great insight and additional strength to speak with love and truth to those around me. You are anointed and blessed.

  • I won’t ask you to extend the hand of fellowship and I trust Christ for my salvation, so I’ll not burden you by expecting you to affirm it. I will accept your right to believe a gay marriage is sinful. Though, as you would say same of me, your horrible interpretation to Scripture as a magic eight ball is what gets you there. And, as is your right, you may admonish me. But I would admonish you to spend less time being defensive and more time thinking carefully how you excuse the anguishing burden you place on young Christian adults who are coming into an awareness of their sexual identity.
    (And it wouldn’t kill you to wonder how two identical marriages can be one sinful and the other sacred just because of gonads. Where else in the whole Bible is the exact same thing sinful for one person but not the other person?)

  • mike

    When asked: “You mention faithfulness and God. Do you think an LGBT relationship can be holy?” Jen Hatmaker says: “I do”.
    As in the book of Revelation, the Church of Thyatira became married to the world and a Jezebel came along to lead God’s people into sexual sin. So too, it’s what this woman Jen is doing by making such a wicked statement above. Her fate as with other Jezebels in the bible will not be pretty if she does not repent. And she is right, the world is watching and Jen’s fate when God brings his judgement as to the Jezebel of the Church of Thyatira will be notable. Marriage was/is God’s invention and He is well able to defend it for his honor and glory.

  • I urge anybody here that is a Christian or is a believer in God to not respond to Regan DuCasse. She only wants to argue, and if we disagree with her at all, we are called bigoted, ignorant, uninformed homophobes. She is a vicious little troll, only interested in her self aggrandizement, a self-righteous martyr to the homosexual cause.

    • Milton Orgeron

      When I mentioned ALL CAPS DAY, I forgot to mention Book-Length Comment Day and Repeated Talking Points Day. ;>)

      • Maybe her caps button is stuck. However it doesn’t change the fact that she says the same thing over and over again, and always emphasizing she empathized with the gay community because she is a black woman and knows prejudice, and if you disagree with her at all you are a bigoted hater. Apparently I am a betrayer of the LGBT community too.

        • Regan DuCasse

          You’ve been repetitious yourself. And after doing you the courtesy of reading your blog, you were even more repetitious with the stereotyping of gay people in particular.
          Okay, and what lesson are you trying to teach me, BJM?
          You shouldn’t be upset at what I learned, if your lesson didn’t go the way you like.

      • Regan DuCasse

        Not surprising I’d have to repeat myself.
        But how often has Scripture been repeated, or the scold to “go read the Bible” or “know Jesus”.
        Repetition will beget repetition.

    • Stacy

      I believe she is also misrepresenting her professional career. She’s made repeated claims to be in crime scene photography, in forensics, specifically in the Los Angeles area. I have found no traces of her in either of the major law enforcement jurisdictions in the LA area. People who have been working as crime scene photographers for several decades in the LA area have never heard her name. Also, it should be noted that she claims that crime scene photographers are first responders. Neither the LASD nor the LAPD consider forensics personnel first responders. Someone who actually does the job would know that.

      • Knew she had the potential to be a phony.

        • Regan DuCasse

          I don’t expect a Christian to be a pushover, but Stacy betrayed something I never did.
          And never would.
          And so whatever moral cred you think you have, went out of the window.
          Not much I can do about that.
          I don’t know what makes you think your religious beliefs justifies this bit of behavior, but more than a few times you revealed yourselves as essentially the nasty people you are under your phony and very thin Christian values veneer.
          You really have to so insecure to pull something like Stacy did.
          You couldn’t care less about clarification, so I won’t bother.

          • Please clarify. I truly want to hear your side, but you did make it sound as if you worked for the LAPD. Also, how did Stacy betray? I would like to know. There is too much bitterness here.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Really Bradley? Really?
            Why should I?
            And especially to you? You haven’t believed me, but since you went right along with Stacy, straight for the ridicule, don’t you think it’s late for me to trust your sincerity to care about my side?
            How do you THINK Stacy betrayed?
            Snooping behind my back, then snitching and then denying my background. Any other information shared here, can be used in the same way.
            I already said, I lost that job and it’s been two and a half years, and I can’t go back.
            A very painful thing to occur, and losing a friend I worked with there too.
            If you want me to say another thing about it, you’re going to have to do a better job of building trust about that.
            I’m not having this out here.
            Your site, or something else would be better.

          • Regan DuCasse

            Will write you via email.

      • Regan DuCasse

        So, you’re spying on me?
        Wow…and why did you do that?
        You’d breach a person’s privacy in that way, and you’re proving Christians are so willing to do harm to people who don’t agree with them.
        I’ve broken no laws, I haven’t breached anyone else’s privacy here, nor revealed you on other media.
        I have been honest and at no time, would do anything like that to you, as you as you have to me.
        And now, it looks like any further explanation, or honesty is going to be used to further breach my privacy and misrepresent me.
        What a disgrace you are.

      • Regan DuCasse

        You don’t know what you’re talking about. Mind your own business.

      • Zac

        Wow, you’re super gross. What a good Christian you are. Bet you are Super Saved.

        • “Super gross”? What are you, like thirteen? There is no “Super Saved”. Do you even know what “saved” means?

          • Zac

            Even if I didn’t, I sure wouldn’t ask someone like you to explain it.

          • P0xi

            Bradley, you’re one of the worst people I’ve ever known in my life.
            You are seriously twisted.

            You should go back to being a gay slut. At least you weren’t hurting anyone then.

          • “The fool hath said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.”
            Psalm 53:1
            On the treatment of fools: Proverbs 26:1-12
            God bless!

          • P0xi

            You are right. Only a fool would keep the truth secret.

            A fool says only in his heart, that there is no god.
            A wise man says it openly.

            There is no god.

          • P0xi

            Seriously though, to just use a bible verse to defend the bible is kinda stupid, isn’t it?

            “The bible is true because the bible said so”.

            Are you insane? You are, ain’t ya?
            You silly little moron. You are seriously twisted and evil inside.

          • P0xi

            You’re a bad person, and you won’t ever understand why.
            You have my pity.

          • “Bradley, you’re one of the worst people I’ve ever known in my life.
            You are seriously twisted.”
            Thanks! Coming from you, that is a real compliment!

  • rchelle_7

    Amen Matt…this is truly a blessed word. GOD Bless you and thank you so much for your faithfulness and firm stand against the compromising of our Father GOD’s Word and His Truth.

  • lonebear

    I love what you have to say about this. We have to stay true to the Word. Hate the sin and not the sinner, but we can’t condone these things

  • Clive Loseby
  • sandraleesmith46

    Well said, and spot on! And congratulations on you position personally as well. Nowhere does God even remotely indicate that any of the things He condemned as abominations can, or should, be condoned by believers! You will be blessed for standing firmly on God’s Word, regardless how many oppose you!

  • Condemned by people,in line with God
    “I admire you for the strength you exert every day in suppressing this part of yourself,” some kindly say, “but you don’t have to live like this. God wants you to be happy with a person you find desirable. He will still love and bless you if you find a man to spend the rest of your life with.” And then there are other professing Christians who take a not-as-nice approach and run around town telling people (who later tell me) that I am deceiving myself, misrepresenting Jesus, and negatively influencing others with my antiquated beliefs.
- I understand this is part of the gospel package. Following Jesus with this thorn lodged in my side is always going to earn me some sideways looks. 
2nd Corinthians 12:7-10
    7 And least I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
    8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
    9 And he said unto me, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
- How we are instructed to respond to professing Christians who personally indulge in sexual immorality (and a whole slew of other sins) and refuse to repent:
    “Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” – Romans 1:32 (emphasis mine)”
I have always loved the words used in the KJV because, to me, they’re absolute in their placement in the text, thereby making their meaning clear.



Example: same passage as above: 
 ” Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
”Knowing” (a word we all know it’s meaning) already being aware of something. What did they already know? The judgement of God, that’s what they knew! Then so that you and I will also know, we are told what is His judgment. That they which commit such things are worthy of death. Now that we have been given awareness evil of what had been discussed a comma is placed to make us aware that included are people who, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


  • Giauz Ragnarock

    I got in touch with Jesus. He doesn’t think LGBT+ people are inherrently sinful just because they don’t do anything that straight cis people don’t also do and in greater numbers.

    • Rachelthemillenial

      That’s not quite true.
      In the US, 1 in 5 gay men is infected with AIDS.
      For the US population at large, it’s 1 in 99.

      Obviously gays are doing something extremely unhealthy.

      But don’t let scientific data affect you. Keep on doing what you’re doing.

      • Giauz Ragnarock

        “Obviously gays are doing something extremely unhealthy.”

        Jesus looked into that, and it would seem that in the same situations straight people without much in the way of sex ed having unprotected trists in small dating pools that society discourages if not actively punishes for trying to be couples with places in society. That and Jesus is flummoxed by HIV. It mutates everytime Jesus tries to cure it… and Jesus doesn’t recall creating the organism, shivering as he reflects on this mystery…

  • Proud Amelekite

    I could never see the world the way you do. I drift between misotheist and agnostic. If He is there then I hate him and view him as the enemy of humanity and human flourishing. I judge him by the Christians I have dealt with. The fruit he has produced in them is rotten in my experience. I welcome His judgement and hell because I have no wish to spend eternity with an entity I hate.

    That said, I do respect the Side B gay Christians as you lot do stand among the jackals as an example of us LGBT folks so that they can’t raise kids to hate and kill us in your absence. It is a hard road and one you walk alone, surrounded by “family” that would secretly rejoice in your death. They hate you, in their hearts. Make no mistake about that. I didn’t come out till I was much older but stayed in Church till then and I know what they say about us when we aren’t around. I played along with them when I still masqueraded as one of them. Bit my tongue and let their bile boil me through, temper my conscience against them, and harden me against their God for when I would finally turn away from them all. Tread carefully on your faith journey. Never turn your back on these “brothers and sisters”.

    • Hi! Hate is never the answer, as it will just eat you up inside. Never hated God myself, but I surely didn’t like Him either. I had to let all this go. It won’t be easy, and God is not asking you to be something you aren’t. I had to realize this too. He never asked me to be straight – He just asked me to serve Him, in my capacity. One of the problems that gay people have (myself included) is that we need to feel affirmed and loved by everybody. Realistically, this will never happen. There is great wisdom in Matthew 7 when Jesus said “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” This applies to all. There are many who don’t approve of who or what we are. But to judge all believers because of the actions of a few is to do exactly what they are doing. We are better than that. The best way to show love to those who hate us is to forgive them. God is real! And He sent us Jesus Christ to forgive all our sins. He didn’t ask us to be straight, just to love Him.

      • Proud Amelekite

        My feelings on God are conditional. If the Evangelical representation of him is the real one then he is my enemy. As for hatred, I hate all things I view as evil, dishonorable, tyrannical, and antithetical to the welfare of my brethren and general human flourishing. If God is these things then I will hate and oppose him, lead children away from him, and gladly accept the glory of hell over him. It is nothing personal. Just war.

        I try not to hate believers and mostly succeed. That said, I will continue to recognize them as enemies because enemies is what they are. I will rejoice when the culture turns my way and use my talents to hinder and sabotage their attempts to change it in ways I view antithetical to me and my brethren. I don’t need their love – their submission will suffice. Again, tt is nothing personal. Just war.

  • “Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
    II Thessalonians 2:14-15

  • Regan DuCasse

    I’m reading through my comments, and what I’m reading is that I was brutally frank and didn’t give praise or unconditional responses of love and belief.
    I had in no uncertain terms, expected to be able to have a conversation, but being confronted with a constant barrage of nothing but scolding will get you as good as YOU give.
    Being honest, open and frank (even if unfiltered), was met with unnecessary hostility, name calling and going behind my back.
    You just want to let it all continue, and you just can’t move on.
    This despite the fact that with a few exceptions I did have a civil conversation with a FEW other believers such as yourself on a previous article.
    Yes, I’m capable of that.
    But the motivation to go behind my back regarding my former work situation, was supposed to do what?
    I am no longer in that job, and I’m currently on disability, because lupus is a very life threatening auto immune disorder and photo chemicals are carcinogenic and several members of the unit have passed from cancer.
    Before they could enjoy their retirement.
    One, one of my first tech trainers, passed nearly three years ago in the spring.
    So my doctor was taking no chances when I developed diminished lung capacity.
    I’ve missed the work, and my colleagues.
    And I can’t go back.
    So thanks a lot reminding me of what I lost that meant a lot to me.
    Of course it means nothing to you.
    You just try to prove to yourself how right you think you are, and it doesn’t matter how.
    I see you’re highly motivated to make judgments and commit mostly to pointing fingers at someone while hiding behind piety and Scripture and put complete strangers on the defensive with your offensive tactics.
    Stacy, you have no idea about me or what you’re talking about.
    But I can’t stop you from being smug about being a snitch.
    And that’s exactly why, eventually, Christians like yourself will not be trusted, and your sincerity and integrity will rightfully be questioned.
    Because when you cross a line, no amount of piety or entreats to God will wash away the evil that moves you to treat someone that way to begin with.

  • P0xi

    “ . . . I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the
    name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an
    idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a
    one.” – 1 Corinthians 5:11

    And I am writing now to tell you that one who shuns his neighbor, one who rejects a friend for a sin, one who casts out a person for being evil, in a world where forgiveness is possible, is the evil one.

    Do not stone the prostitute. Do not stone the gay person. Do not stone the thief. Do not stone the rapist or murderer.

    Let them repent. Let them come clean, and join us for a feast once more.

    Anyone who looks down on another person: I look down on you from a place you have not the height to see.

  • Cheree

    Mr. Matt you are definitely on the right track. Unfortunately, I think christians that condone sin especially a sin GOD says is abominable is Luke warm or carnal. You are right to discontinue fellowship with them to yourself from being tainted by their views. You may have to pray and intercede for them from a far. May God Bless You and continue to strengthen you in your devotion to the Lord!