Is Same-Sex Attraction a Sin?

Anytime I write about the ever-controversial topic of homosexuality, I anticipate and mentally prepare for some pushback. Everybody seems to have a strong opinion on this issue, and many are not shy about expressing those opinions (as long as they can do so behind a computer screen). Most of the time, the arrows of criticism are launched from the bows of gay-affirming unbelievers or theologically liberal “Christians” who believe God blesses same-sex relationships. However, there are exceptions.

Earlier this year, after one of my pieces was republished on the The Gospel Coalition’s website, most of the critical responses were composed by Bible-believing Christians who, like me, believe homosexual behavior is sinful. But, unlike me, they also believe merely experiencing same-sex attraction is a willful act of sin. A number of readers commended me for turning away from same-sex behaviors, but they also insisted that my ongoing struggle with same-sex attraction indicates that I am not sincerely and fully submitting myself to God. Some said God will not be pleased with me until my same-sex attraction ceases to exist.

Are they right? Is my mere experience of same-sex attraction a sin? Is it impossible for me to please God as long as these feelings persist?

My short answer is no; I don’t think these folks are correct. But neither do I think the common counterargument is correct. Many Christians insist there is nothing wrong with simply experiencing romantic and sexual desires for the same gender. They believe it only becomes a problem if you act on those desires. Homosexual behavior is wrong and sinful, they say, but the feelings, in and of themselves, are morally neutral. They see nothing wrong with having a “gay orientation.” Though I do lean more toward this camp’s position, I cannot fully embrace it.

Most Christians agree the Bible clearly teaches it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior. But what does the Bible teach about homosexual feelings? Is it a sin to simply feel romantic or sexual attraction to the same gender? I think it can be. I do not believe a person commits sexual sin merely by experiencing an unintentional, spontaneous temptation to sin sexually. But I do think a person commits sin if they choose to lustfully entertain the tempting thought rather than crushing it by directing their mind’s attention to Christ.

The other day I was walking down the street and felt a spontaneous sexual attraction toward some guy I passed, but I immediately took that thought captive and slayed it by the power of the Spirit. I do not believe I sinned. Rather, I think I glorified God by triumphing in a moment of temptation. But what if I didn’t take that thought captive? What if I had let it flesh out, even briefly, into a lustful fantasy? Would I have committed a sin even though I technically did not “act”? Yes—absolutely! “Acting” is not necessary to constitute sin. It is totally possible to sin secretly within the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Just ask Jesus: “I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” – Matthew 5:28.

Jesus did not condemn feeling an unintentional, spontaneous temptation to sin sexually; he condemned looking with lustful intent. Lustful intent is the key phrase here. When I passed the guy on the street, my initial attraction to him was not intentional. It just happened! I crushed the thought by setting my mind on Christ and therefore do not believe I sinned. But had I intentionally continued to entertain that unintentional thought and allowed myself to lustfully fantasize, I would have sinned.

In summary, there is a difference between temptation and lust. Temptation is the unintentional experience of a spontaneous enticement toward sin. Temptation is not sin. Lust is intentionally allowing a temptation of sexual nature to fester and grow for one’s own perverted enjoyment. Lust is sin.

—-WARNING: Now treading into muddy waters!—-

However, was my initial attraction toward the man I passed on the street a natural or morally neutral experience? Is it comparable to a married man being instinctively attracted to a woman who is not his wife? I don’t think so. Though I do not believe merely and unintentionally experiencing homosexual desires constitutes a sinful act, I also do not believe it is a natural or morally neutral experience. Homosexual desire was not part of God’s initial design but came running in on the heels of Original Sin. It is utterly unnatural.

If Adam had never fallen and human nature had never been corrupted by sin, the temptation to commit homosexual acts (or heterosexual rape and heterosexual pedophilia) would not exist within human hearts. When Adam sinned against God, his nature was corrupted, and his descendants have inherited that corrupt nature. We are not born good or even morally neutral; we are “brought forth in iniquity” and “conceived in sin” (Psalm 51:5). Our sinful nature is the vile soil from which sexual perversities arise.

However, some would argue that Jesus, whose nature was not corrupted by sin, was tempted to commit homosexual acts because Hebrews 4:15 says “in every respect [he] has been tempted as we are.” If these people are correct, and Jesus really was tempted to commit homosexual acts, it logically follows that he was also tempted to commit every other kind of sexual sin, including heterosexual rape and pedophilia. However, it is my opinion that this verse does not mean Jesus was tempted to commit every sin that every fallen person is tempted to commit.

Concerning Jesus’ temptations, theologian Joseph Benson once wrote:

“What is here said of the similarity of our Lord’s trials to ours, does not imply an exact likeness; for he was free from that corruption of nature which, as the consequence of Adam’s sin, has infected all mankind.”

I do not believe the temptation experienced by Jesus (or Adam and Eve in their pre-fallen state) involved the temptation to commit same-sex acts. According to Paul, a refusal to love and worship God—two things Jesus never failed to do—preceded homosexual desire (Romans 1:21-27). Homosexual desire is a byproduct of the corrupt, sinful nature.

So what does this mean for people like me who experience this unnatural desire on a daily basis? Am I to live in a constant state of self-loathing turmoil, always lecturing myself about what a corrupt and worthless piece of crap I am? No! The good news of the gospel is that though I am thoroughly flawed, God loves me and sent his Son to save me from my corruption (please read this). Because God has made me alive together with Christ, I am no longer defined by my flesh and all the distorted desires within it. I am not the corruption that lies within me; I am the righteousness of God in Christ.

I believe my same-sex attraction will continue to dwindle in intensity as God continues to sanctify me. However, if my experience is anything like the SSA strugglers who have gone before me, it is probable that this pattern of temptation will persist at some level until I die or Christ returns. And until either of those days comes, I will cry out honestly and hopefully with the apostle Paul: “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” – Romans 7:24-25

(Note: This is a revised version of an article I originally published on 05/04/2016) 

  • jmberman

    Love this version too.
    Agree, wholeheartedly.
    Wish I had written it, but still glad it was said.

  • Regan DuCasse

    I really, really cannot let this one go by either. At one point matt is heterosplaining the differences between feelings and acts.
    Passing someone on the street, there are different ways of interpreting those feelings. But just passing someone, and then making a big deal out of squashing the feelings, or interpretation of those feelings: I don’t see how that’s cause for claiming some virtue by something so fleeting, let alone that wasn’t mutual.

    I am again disturbed by the conflation of heterosexual rape, or pedophilia with said feelings or acts, that might be acted on by someone gay towards another gender.
    May I remind people here that rape and pedophilia are not mutual in feeling or acts. They are non correspondent matters of one person’s obsessive, even compulsive ACTS towards another person that in every way is anti social and negative.
    As a woman, in the real world, I don’t always trust a male’s initial compliments or attitudes towards me on the street when I’m the one just passing.
    I can’t know if what their intention is for initiating anything.
    And of course, I wouldn’t know their feelings, without them communicating them to me. But there have been times I have been looked on as if I were a meal for a hungry wolf.
    So matt’s article here, while quite sophist, still doesn’t get at the heart of the double standards that confront any of us on the basis of gender and gender expression.
    Gay men don’t nearly give me the feeling of threat that hetero males do.
    And men to men, at least it can be rightfully assumed that the threat isn’t the same, nor what one can assess of it.
    This is part of the damage done by religious social standards concerning gender and trying to place it in unnatural, strictly binary segregation.
    I still maintain that the role of homosexuality and transgenderism plays a significant role in tempering all this lust that people here keep talking about.
    It makes sense that heterosexual men, learn from gay men what having relationships with females means, that IS non threatening.

    Has anyone here really considered that? That the relationship between heterosexual and their homosexual counterparts is how we complete each other’s needs and understanding.
    There is no enforcement of gender roles, but that the natural blurring between them allows for more ease between each other.
    All the emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and material benefits, without the sexual tension.
    THAT is what gay and hetero people can and have done for each other.
    And it’s a brilliant plan, that seems to elude ordinary mortals here.
    That’s how the Creator made us fit, anyone care to trade comments on that VERY likely scenario?

    • AnotherMike

      Though time is limited and road trips are many, Happy Thanksgiving and may your holiday time be filled with joy and memories worth holding. May you stay safe and may those to whom you call your own do as well.

      Future posts are forth coming.

      “I am just another Mike, just like some are another Joe.”
      Mike

      • Regan DuCasse

        Thanks so much. I hope the same for you.

  • Hi Matt,

    I think you did a fine job here of parsing what you me. And as a fellow theologically conservative Christian who has experienced the temptation and the lusting itself, I agree with you assessment. I’ve had to think through the same things just as you have.

    1.) Sexual acts between members of the same sex are categorically sinful.
    2.) Lusts or covetousness directed toward such sexual acts are sinful.
    3.) The tendency (concupiscence) toward such lusts is the result of radical corruption.

    However, since homosexuality or same-sex attraction can be (and is sometime officially defined as) a vague bleeding together of clearly nonsexual types of affections, questionably “proto-sexual” desires, and actual sexual desires or lusts, we should be assured that all of the following desires are not inherently sinful or homosexual for someone to experience:

    1.) a sense of protectiveness, watchfulness, or responsibility toward another
    2.) deeply moving compassion for their sufferings and injuries in life
    3.) kinship or camaraderie where we feel like family to them—a sort of bond
    4.) fondness and delight for their presence and yearning to be with them socially
    5.) aesthetic appreciation for their physical beauty and abilities
    6.) deep affection for their endearing and admirable character traits
    7.) a vague and non-specific intrigue or wonderment

    Matt Anderson does a good analysis of that last one here:
    https://mereorthodoxy.com/can-christians-gay-inquiry/

    Some of those things can serve as inroads for sexual covetousness, but none of them are in and of themselves such covetousness. They can also be inroad to others sorts of lusting as well, such as jealousy or possessiveness. The fact that some guys experience these things more profoundly for other guys than for gals shouldn’t be understood as signs of crypto-homosexuality like so many in our culture try to tell us that they are.

    I know for myself that there were times when my impression and experience in church community has implicitly misled me into thinking that all of these things where part of sinful covetousness. And thinking that I was supposed to freed by Christ from all of those affections used to make me really wonder and worry about what would be left of me as a person if all of that disappeared. Eventually, I realized I was calling things sin which were not sin and asking God to take away things that were good.

    My two cents.

    Aaron

  • Lyle Nelson

    All of us are sinful and imperfect. I believe the differences are in amount, type, and willfulness of the sin, which is reflected in our attempts to control it and repent of it. Where we have faith in our Savior, promptly repent of any sins of which we are aware, and honestly try to lead a holy life, then I’m not sure the type of sin matters very much. The type of sin is likely due to our natural propensities, as corrupted by original sin. What is or isn’t sin is not as important as our efforts to control it, whatever it might be, and lead a holy life.

    • mike

      I would agree. Lust is lust. Whether SSA’d lust or OSA’d lust. Both are sin equally so. The distinction is unhelpful and is why the church has failed SSA’d folk. Moreover, it does injustice for SSA’d fold to feel inferior to their OSA’d counterpart because somehow their lust is worse! Where is the biblical basis for that dichotomy? Muddy waters indeed.

      • P0xi

        Actually, lust is the feeling that leads to love.

        When you feel lust for a person, you are drawn to them. God designed this system so that when you see a person who seems perfect, you want to go up to them and say hello.

        No one is perfect, but lust makes it feel that way. And that’s ok. Looking for perfection isn’t a good idea, in a world without perfect people. Instead, lust helps us feel a strong desire for someone, and once we connect with them and become friends, we can begin to feel LOVE.

        LOVE is the greatest feeling in the world. It is better than lust. It is better than friendship.

        It is the ultimate feeling, and lust is part of that feeling.

        Do not denounce lust. On its own, yes, lust can be dangerous, but it is not a sin to feel things. To think that your natural feelings are wrong is a delusion. Don’t fall for it.

        God is in his heaven, and all is right with the world as it is.
        Do your best to live a good life.

        We don’t always need a Biblical basis for things. We just need faith in God, and faith in fellow humans. Controlling people or judging them is unwise.

        Humans should never use the word “sin”. You shouldn’t even say it.
        Only gods can tell what is sin, and what isn’t. For you to judge another person based on an ancient book is not wise. That book might be wrong, even if God is not wrong.

        Have faith, but be skeptical as well. You need to use the brain God gave you, or you will make friends with people who want to manipulate you, and become enemies with people who would be your greatest allies.

        • TROLL ALERT!!!

        • Keith Rogers

          Sexual orientation is NOT a sin.It is entirely involuntary snd not usually chosen.Even conservative Roman Catholics and most evangelicals don’t regard orientation as a sin-only acting upon it.
          Sexual attraction is NOT lust.Lust is abusive,exploitative , abusive and unloving .
          If you are calling all sexual attraction lust then God has created people with the very desires (hetero-or homo-)-and then having created them called them sin.
          This is illogical and would make god a very contrary being.

          • P0xi

            Acting on it is fine too.

            It happens all the time, and if god weaves fate, then when two people, straight, gay, or anything else fall in love and someday die together, still in love, then that is the web of fate and nothing more.

          • Keith Rogers

            Yes I don’t believe it’s a sin either (at least in the context of a loving relationship ).The point I was making is that if I was a conservative on this issue -I wouldn’t regard a gay orientation as a sin only the act.To regard sexual orientation is an extreme view.

          • P0xi

            I suppose.

            The thing that saddens me is why this argument must happen in the first place.

            Why must cult mythology turn people against each other? Why are these religious rules so important to people?

            To the point that we shatter alliances, and make enemies with people? I have no reason to hate anyone.

            Unless a person says “Gay people are bad.” And I must disagree. I don’t choose to disagree.
            My instincts tell me that it’s wrong to judge people for such petty things.

          • Eric Newsom

            I agree. Orientation in itself is not a “sin”. As a sober alcoholic, being born with the genetic markers that make me an alcoholic is not a sin, but drunkenness is.

    • P0xi

      First, you must assume that God’s creation is perfect.

      But is it really? If it was perfect, why did it go wrong?

      I’d say it didn’t. It is perfect just how it is. All things are natural, and things that happen in this world are inherently natural.

      If it happens, it is natural. No matter your subjective view on it, it is natural.
      No matter if you approve or disapprove of a behavior, it is natural.

      Now, if you’re some sort of creationist, I’ve got no words for you. You’re basically so deep in a cult, that I don’t think we have anything in common.

      But if you understand evolution, you’d understand that life and death are both natural, and both are good. There is no evil in this world. To a human with such a short life, of course you’d see some things as evil or good.

      But the eyes of God see no evil. God sees this world as it truly is. He knows the past, he knows the future. He knows what you’ll do next week. He knows what you ate for dinner even 46 days ago. Even you can’t remember what you ate 46 days ago, but He can.

      I don’t think God sees this world as good or evil. That’s a human judgement.
      Gods see the world as it truly is, without instinct or flaw.

      • TROLL ALERT!!!

      • Carolyn Hartman

        I would say that this way of thinking is extremely flawed, POxi.

  • I have been wrestling with this for some time. I can’t always be on my guard. Sometimes I do slip, and I find myself looking at some guy. I don’t fantasize about having sex with them anymore. I have learned to control this through the Holy Spirt. I don’t beat myself up about it when I look instinctfully, like I used to. I am a child of God. I am neither worse than a straight adulter or worse than someone in a gay relationship. The only difference between me and them is that I have been redeemed by my Father.
    Great post Matt!

    • mike

      What’s hard is for the glance to turn into a stare for me. What’s bad is to berate myself for it. Instead, I acknowledge to myself — yes, the guy is gorgeous and God created beauty. I can delight in that 😊. But God didn’t make him for me to lust over. No, so I imagine a beautiful woman that God made for that good looking guy that might be his wife if he’s so inclined. For me, those truths are empowered by the Spirit because that really is the truth to me.

  • Benjamin Spratling

    While I agree with you that the “experience of same-sex attraction” is not a chosen sin, I disagree with the idea that there is “a same sex attraction” which is inherently erotic. Instead, I believe that “gay feelings” are merely erotic attraction which has been mixed with non-erotic and healthy same-sex attraction. There is no single, new, different “feeling” or “desire” that “gay men” experience. Instead, just the subconscious’s attempt to fulfill its necessary non-erotic sexual-identity needs with erotic activity. The micro-emotional responses associated with a PTSD trigger are present in that “spit second” between seeing a guy, judging him to be masculine, longing for the masculine and the learned response to approach him erotically. They can be exposed with expert psychological help, something unfortunately lacking in modern churches. I agree with you that this is not an act of conscious will, and also call you to seek true healing for this mix up. We are not called to leave ourselves in our broken state, but to work everyday for the healing and growing of our soul. 1 Peter 2:5-7. That is, of course, for those who arrived at this point by a deficiency of same-sex emotional connection. For others, mere sexual abuse can reprogram the physiological response in the same way it intends to bind a man to one wife. For others, the Solomon phrase about “living in the corner of a roof is better than living with a contentious woman” seems like the best biblical explanation! Modern American culture so devalues femininity that many women try to act like men just to feel accepted as a person. That leaves many men looking for their counterpart, and they can’t find it in feminists, so their mind identifies some other men as possessing their complement’s qualities. When I ask men who came into “gay feelings” via this route how they “see” women, and then share that list with “straight men”, the straight men tell me they know women like that and don’t find them attractive! But for the “straight man”, he knows this is just some women, while others are different, while the “gay” or “bisexual” man sees practically all women in that way, formed by their early and close experiences with women. When they heal this perception of feminism by experiencing non-erotic interaction with healthy women, their mindset alters, and they begin to teach their subconscious mind, which I suppose might map to either the biblical idea of ‘heart’ or ‘soul’ (if you have any leads on that, let me know!) that things are different.

    • Benjamin Spratling

      Of course, if I’m right, your subconscious is trying to tell you exactly what its missing by merely pointing out which men are attractive, and which parts of him are attractive. Maybe your judgement of “true masculinity” is off, maybe there are truly masculine qualities you believe you do not possess, or maybe there is simply a lack of fatherly affirmation and brotherly affection in your experience of these masculine qualities. “slaying it by the power of the spirit” may in fact be exactly what’s keeping you stuck in experiencing non-chosen “same sex attraction” instead of identifying and fulfilling those non-erotic needs. We’re not supposed to “abolish” arguments, not “desire”. But then that word “desire” gets muddled between “goals” and “strategies”. As Christians, we can be assured that our end goals are good and will be fulfilled, if we submit ourselves to God first, but our learned strategies may still be sinful lessons bouncing around in our bodies. I think confusion over this is why the Church has proven so inept at helping people heal from the various psychological traumas which lead to eroticizing same-sex attraction. When you saw this guy on the street, what about him attracted you? Was it his physique? Maybe your heart is trying to tell you it wants to work out more, or you have learned unrealistic standards of appearance. Was it his attitude? Maybe your soul is trying to tell you it wants to be accepted for its assertiveness, or strength? In my experience, the way out is inescapably tied to the way in, which is inescapably tied to the particulars of the attraction. If there’s one great lie that the corrupted church has taught, it’s that there is “a” single same-sex attraction that everyone who “feels gay” experiences, and that it has no components. Well, that and the lie that we’re not supposed to be kissing each other when we great each other at church… but that’s another debate…

  • Douglas Miguel Llanos

    Thanks for your Words… God bless you bro.

  • Michelle Krause

    Matt Moore – If you get a chance, look at a YouTube video of Kat Kerr on soul ties and soul clutter. I can attest to how loosing things from my soul and binding God’s love, peace etc., to my soul has had an amazing impact on my life. Praying for you.

  • Brian Amason

    As someone who has dealt with same sex attraction as long as I can remember, I couldn’t disagree with you more. I was taught that the feelings were disgusting, vile and corrupt. I was taught that homosexuality is not only a sin but an abomination and I was so ashamed of who I was.

    Almost two years ago, I decided that I was tired of living that lie. I was tired of telling myself (and everyone else) that I was not gay. I had done everything that I knew to do. I had fasted, prayed, gone to therapy, had accountability partners, and more to try to stop feeling the way I did. It doesn’t change and I don’t believe for one moment that my feelings are wrong. I believe the hate that you are spewing to tell people that they should be ashamed of who they are is wrong.

    I wish you the best in your journey and pray that you learn to lovingly accept yourself and others the way God created us.

    • mike

      I agree with you Brian. Feelings are not right or wrong. They just are. They point to some deeper issue which may be a reality or an unreality. It needs sorting out. And negative feelings are destructive and need addressing. Your post feels to me like you are at peace Brian. That’s a strong and healthy place 😊.

    • Jeannie Oakes Herod

      It is not hate to tell the truth, though it is counted so by those who wrestle with those feelings. You have told everything you did to try and overcome these same sex feelings, yet the most important thing was missing. Have you accepted Christ as your personal saviour? Have you acknowledged and confessed your sins to Him, accepted His forgiveness? If you have not, then all the fasting, therapy, etc. will do very little good. It is only through Christ that you can receive the cleansing power of His blood. As it is written in His Word, When you know the truth, then the truth will set you free. Will you still struggle with sin? Why sure, but you will now have an advocate with the Father, who stands ready to help you when satan comes against you with sinful thoughts, desires, etc. When you truly have Christ as your Saviour, then and only then will you have lasting peace. May God bless you to settle this matter with Himself.

      • Regan DuCasse

        “It’s not hate to tell the truth”.
        That’s a loaded one.

        Although I know the defense for it well, I went back over some miscegenation defenses from back in the early 40’s to now. It’s all information that I amassed as part of a literary project I’d been working on.
        How people worked out a divinely sanctioned rationale for segregation, (whether between the genders, or the colors), is the same defense to keep gay people from finding a life mate.
        But now, although the Bible is specific about gay people deserving to die, there is a new rationale for keeping them alive, but in a repressed state, all for the purpose of extending Christian influence and control.
        So the truth actually is: how is some reconciled, and not more, despite the same human progress and empirical experience that’s always advanced human societies to change with that progress?
        Well?
        How about NOT giving a Biblical reference for a change? I won’t accept one. Because that’s been done before.
        Try something else.

  • Eric Newsom

    I’ve heard it said the real sin of homosexuality isn’t so much homosexuality itself, but the sin of adultery/fornication. Because marriage is to be between a man and a woman according to the Bible, homosexuals are guilty of adultery.

    • P0xi

      Yes, but we don’t need to live based on the Bible.

      We need to live based on the ideals of God.

      Yeah, this is an unpopular opinion, but the Bible was probably manipulated in ancient Rome so that the old fashion way of living there, where it was ok to be bisexual, as in, have a wife AND a male “best-friend” lover, was ended.

      I highly doubt that God thinks of sex as evil. Sex isn’t evil. It’s not bad.
      It feels good, and it causes you to feel happiness and love, plus it brings about new life.
      A miracle.

      Of course, rape is still a terrible crime, but when a person says “I love you, let us make love”, then it doesn’t matter if they’re male/male or female/female or male/female.

      Love is what matters.

      • TROLL ALERT !!!

      • Carolyn Hartman

        Not I get it, POxi. You and I don’t worship the same God.

      • Eric Newsom

        The gospel of John was written around 85 AD, 15 years after the sac and destruction of Jerusalem, thus wasn’t manipulated by the Romans, not to mention that is pure speculation on your part and there is no evidence what-so-ever that the Romans manipulated the Bible. The Gospel of John is a reflection of, and consistent with the other three gospels, which were written just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. Additionally, we have other ancient texts that predate the Roman occupation. This was part of the significance of the Dead Sea Scrolls – they date back to as early as 150 BC with the original texts of many of the books of the Old Testament that are EXACTLY as they are today (Rome didn’t occupy Jerusalem until around 60 BC). Also, these texts were kept by a community of Jews living outside contact with Roman occupiers. If you believe homosexuality is perfectly fine and “love” is all that matters, that’s fine – believe what you want to believe and I don’t judge, but get your facts straight before spouting off your personal opinions which are based upon your “feelings” and not historic fact. YOU don’t need to live based on the Bible, not “WE”. Don’t include me in your personal “feelings” about how YOU should live. I choose to live as best I can based upon what God says to me in His Word, not based upon someone’s “ideals” of what they “think” God says. The Bible is quite clear that homosexuality is wrong for ME. But is it wrong for a gay Atheist, because against whom has the Atheist sinned?

        • P0xi

          Your failure to comprehend the concept of atheism is pathetic.

          There is no god. It’s made up.

          How are you this dense? The supernatural isn’t real.

          Demons aren’t real. Hell isn’t real. Heaven isn’t real. Do you think these things are real?

          They’re not. You are an utter moron, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

          How dare you believe so stupidly in made up mythology? How dare you humiliate yourself?

          Feel shame, you worthless sheep. You worthless dog.

          Nothing supernatural is real.

          They’re lies. Do you think I’m joking? Do you think that this supernatural mythology regarding a cult leader from ancient times is true?

          Jesus lied. He was a liar. A lying cult leader who played simple tricks.

          How can you not comprehend this? There is no god, because gods aren’t real.

          You need to shut your mouth, you pathetic little man, because you are an embarrassment to the human race.

          I am embarrassed to share species with you, and all you other Christians and religious people who all believe so utterly in what is obvious lies. Lies to control you. Lies that deliberately spread themselves like a mental infection, and enforce their stupid rules upon society.

          Do you think I’m as naive as you are? You have no comprehension of these topics, and you look like a fool for it.

          Feel shame for believing in your stupid mythology, a mythology that only ruins innocent lives, and forces itself upon children.

          • Eric Newsom

            You’ve just made at least part of my point for me, thanks. People of lower intellect can only resort to name-calling like a little child when they realize they can’t hold their own in an intelligent debate. You believe you’re right based upon……nothing. You believe the majority of the people in the world who believe in some sort of god are wrong based upon……nothing. It’s all about your self-absorbed nature. Though you dishonestly try to portray otherwise, the only love you feel is for yourself. It’s really funny to go back through and read your previous comments about love and tolerance. The original question of this topic was “Is Same Sex Attraction a Sin?”. The word “sin” implies is it wrong from a Biblical perspective? The owner of this blog is a gay Christian who has put his homosexuality aside in order to follow Christ – that’s the context of this topic discussion – try to keep up. If you don’t believe in God or the Bible, then this discussion has nothing to do with you, except your willingness to make yourself look foolish. As I’ve said before, if you don’t believe in a god, that’s your business – don’t believe in a god. However, don’t try to force your beliefs on others and put them down because they don’t believe as do you – that’s a sign of immaturity, and ironically puts you in the position of being no better than the people you put down.

          • P0xi

            I refuse to comply to your lies.

            Christianity is a viral idea that forces itself down the throats of children and strangers.

            This is evidenced by the fact that non-believers are said to go to hell, and can only not go to hell if they believe.

            This causes Christians to become missionaries. This means that Christianity must be actively opposed. You fail to understand this because you think Christianity is true. It is not true.

            It is a mind virus that is deliberately crafted to spread to people.

            This makes it a threat to free people who might not want it spread.

            The history of the world speaks clearly: Christians use violence, coercion, brainwashing children, and lies to spread their religion. Denying this makes you a liar.

          • Eric Newsom

            You don’t have to “comply to my lies” – you’ve got enough of them on your own. Interesting how in some of your first comments in this blog you acknowledge God as the creator, then you later say there is no god and it’s derived from the imagination. Who’s the liar POxi? You don’t even know what you believe – you’re just winging it. Here are some of your quotes: “God designed this system so that when you see a person who seems perfect, you want to go up to them and say hello.” “God is in his heaven, and all is right with the world as it is. Do your best to live a good life.” “We don’t always need a Biblical basis for things. We just need faith in God, and faith in fellow humans.” “Only gods can tell what is sin, and what isn’t. For you to judge another person based on an ancient book is not wise. That book might be wrong, even if God is not wrong.” “You need to use the brain God gave you, or you will make friends with people who want to manipulate you,….” “First, you must assume that God’s creation is perfect.” “But the eyes of God see no evil. God sees this world as it truly is. He knows the past, he knows the future. He knows what you’ll do next week. He knows what you ate for dinner even 46 days ago. Even you can’t remember what you ate 46 days ago, but He can.” “I don’t think God sees this world as good or evil. That’s a human judgement. Gods see the world as it truly is, without instinct or flaw.” “….. or maybe he had evil in his heart, just enough to corrupt the word of God.” “….and those instincts are my direct connection to God.” “I only trust my heart. My instincts. My heart is open to God,….” Bwahahahah, here’s one I love, “I don’t judge, I will not be judged. I love everyone, no matter what.” Here’s another one that cracks me up, “NO HUMAN can know what is TRULY right.” Bwahahhah!! You say that, and then you state things as “FACT” – Bwahahah!! Now, this is where your schizophrenia begins to show itself as you switch your opinion to believing there is no God, “Now, none of those motivations have anything to do with a god.” “Must it really be a supernatural god from an ancient cult?” Here’s another one that shows your mental illness. You state this after having said earlier that no human can know what is right, “That is a fact. Intelligence is not as variable as you think it is.” Here, your schizophrenia comes out again, “We need to live based on the ideals of God.” “I highly doubt that God thinks of sex as evil.” Then, in your very next comment you state, “There is no god. It’s made up.” Bwahaha!! Were you lying before, or are you lying now? Or, do you just have no idea what you believe and you’re making it up as you go along? Another good one – previously you mentioned God in heaven, then here you say, “Heaven isn’t real.” Here’s one I’ll tell my friends about. After all your schizophrenic statements, you say, “How dare you humiliate yourself?” LOL, how dare you humiliate yourself indeed. Though I laugh and am having fun making good sport of you POxi, it’s actually quite sad. Not only your dead, black heart which has no moral compass and desperately needs a Savior, but it’s obvious you’re mentally ill so I’ll leave you alone at this point. If you are already getting help, change doctors because it’s not working. If you’re not getting help, get help – there’s plenty of help out there for you.

          • P0xi

            What is the truth?

            What even is truth? Is there a truth?

            If there is a truth, why not simply prove it right now?

            Yes, perhaps Pontius should’ve simply asked for a demonstration.

            Mere words can ebb and flow like the tide of the ocean.
            Mere words can alter based on the writer’s perspective. Just as one writer can write both a protagonist and antagonist, I also can.

            It is your failing to not recognize that I write for the reader.
            My opinion has not ever been said even once. Even my insults have purpose.

            My writing is meant to inspire only emotion and thought. To inspire anger, or peace of mind.

            Tell me though, what is the truth?

            And can you prove it?

            No religious cultist can, and that’s why they default to faith.

            Faith is the belief in a lie. That is the true form of faith. Belief in a lie.

            That is why it is faith, and not fact. When speaking to a religious person, facts mean very little.
            Only emotion does. That’s why I cannot even speak of astronomic facts, because a creationist will just deny it.

            I must write from multiple perspectives, or else it is impossible to convey my meaning.

            So again: Prove it.

            Prove that there is a god, and when you cannot, ask yourself why.

            Don’t tell me why. Just to yourself, wonder why no one has ever actually proven a god in any meaningful way.

          • Eric Newsom

            Prove there isn’t.

          • P0xi

            I know that you see the logical fallacy here.

            It is not easy to prove a negative. You must prove your positive claim that there is a god.

            I see no god. If you see one, point it out to me. Don’t point at a galaxy, a tree, or a person.

            Point at the god. Point at it, or reveal its true form. Where is it?

            I’m not interested in playing games or listening to mere words.

            I can point to a galaxy. I can point to a tree. I can talk to a person.

            I can even breathe air, and feel it very clearly, and blow hard enough to move an object, such as a piece of paper.

            But there is no evidence of any god. Atheists in this world start out believing in a god, because they are told that one exists.

            But they stop believing because they do not see it.

            Where is it then? Again, I’m not interested in mere words or logic or emotion.

            I want you to point to it, or reveal its existence in real life in a way that is meaningful, and will convince me.

          • Eric Newsom
          • P0xi

            And so it is done.

            I have proven there is no god.

            You’re the one who did it too. I asked for proof.

            You made an excuse.

            You’ve executed the idea of god with your own hand.

          • Eric Newsom

            I have no idea what color the sky is in your world, but no I haven’t, and neither have you proven there isn’t. You fail to realize the whole purpose of my interaction with you has nothing to do with me trying to convince you of the existence of God, but rather to show you that there are MANY very reasonable and intelligent people in the world who do, thus you have no business belittling, demeaning, or putting down those who do as you have so rudely done in this thread, and I’m sure you’ve done elsewhere. I’ve said it over, and over – if you don’t want to believe in a God, gods, or a creator, then don’t, but don’t put those of us who do down – what right do you have to do that? To do so is to say somehow you know something that the LARGE list of people on the Wiki link I posted do not, and that you perhaps you think way more highly of yourself than you ought. Just as ridiculous as you think those of us who believe in God are, we believe the same about those of you who don’t, and you don’t seem to understand that.

          • P0xi

            You are in a memetic, viral cult, one that desires to spread itself to non-believers.

            Your cult is a danger to free people who are not in the cult. It must be stopped.

            How do I stop it? Do I try to shame you? Use logic? Reason? Facts? Nothing seems to work.

            I ask for proof of your god. Maybe you are right.

            You tell me bullshit, “Prove it doesn’t exist.”

            What can I say to you to get you to understand that you’re in a cult, and everything you believe is a lie?
            Must I mention that movie, The Matrix, to you?

            I don’t know if you have even the capability of understanding my point of view.

            Many Christians are deliberately taught lies such as creationism, using impossible timescales, like 6000 years or so. How am I supposed to deal with this?

            Can you not see the trend? The less religious mythology a person believes, the more sane they act.

            Can you not comprehend why they are taught lies? How come religion is associated with lies?

            How come it’s associated with doomsday cults and crusades, and other wars?

            Why is religion associated with fantasy rewards like immortality in a nice place after you die, or a terrible torture if you don’t believe?

            How can I get through to you? How can I deconvert you from this cult you are in?

            How can I turn you from some religious cultist into just a normal person who can enjoy life without feeling guilt over every little stupid thing, to the point of trying to shame gay people, as many Christians do?

            Even if you can say that you don’t do such a thing, please don’t be naive.

            Don’t act like you can’t imagine what it’s like from my perspective.

            Everywhere I go, there’s someone with some religion, all believing the most absurd, and often ridiculously cruel, mean-hearted things, all part of the same ancient religious mythology. Abrahamic religions.

            What am I to do? You all look like you’re in cults to me, and if you look at a Muslim or a Hindu, you see the truth. Their beliefs aren’t true, compared to yours.

            But to me, none of your beliefs are true. You all look like you’re in a supernatural, made-up religious cult.

            You look literally insane and delusional. Brainwashed, lied to.

            Do you think I am joking? Do you think I am unaware of the reality of the situation?

            Are you?

          • Eric Newsom

            Thanks, POxi. You’ve just proven at least part of the other point that has been brought out in this thread – you’re nothing but a troll. I’m quite sure you live a miserable life loving only yourself; going from site, to site, to site trying to share your mental illness with others. It must be a really miserable life. Take your meds.

          • P0xi

            You need to stand down.

            You’ve lost this argument. I asked for proof, and you played a low card.

            You lost this, and you need to concede. I know you have “feelings” that disagree with the outcome of our chat, but we’ve figured it out. You have no proof. You just make up lies and try to cheat.

            But there is no god. It’s been figured out.

            You have been shown to be a fool and a liar, so stand down.

            You’re simply wrong.

          • Eric Newsom

            No, I have given proof which is in creation itself, however your cold, black, dead heart won’t accept anything except what you believe is right, which is….ironically….wrong, because you have no moral compass and are self-absorbed. You are a troll, a liar, and a fool. I have no “feelings”, I engage in intellectual/philosophical discussion, but you won’t. Read back through you’re comments, fool. You’re the one who writes according to “feelings”. I even pointed out that through most of this thread you acknowledged the existence of God, referred to Him in a personal way, and even described him as being in heaven, and that He is good. Your ridiculous response to that was that it’s your “writing style”. Are you serious? You can’t possibly be serious can you? No, you’ve lost this debate many comments back fool, so you need to “stand down”, fool as you continue to make yourself look more-and-more ridiculous, fool. You are a liar because your father is a liar, and the father of lies. Your father was a liar in the beginning, and a liar today, and he takes advantage of gullible people like you who are weak, and blinds you from the truth. Interesting that in some ways, you are actually proof of a fallen world which then lends itself to the proof of God – thanks for unknowingly affirming my position.

          • P0xi

            No, my father is not the father of lies.

            I am in fact Lord Satan, the Lucifer.

            I am the light bringer, and I come holding light, but also holding darkness.

            I offer a right hand to you.

            But also the left.

            I speak lies, but also truth.

            I know the past.

            I know the future.

            But I do not know your future.

            Now let me ask you this:

            When I acknowledge the existence of God, is that the truth? Or is it the lie?

            When I tell you there is no god, is that the lie? Or the truth?

            Belief or disbelief rests with you, but I warn you:

            One of those options is false, and the other is not.

            Just ask yourself: Which one requires faith?
            And which requires evidence?

            Which requires an ancient book of prophecies?
            And which requires looking out your window, upon a world of both light and shadow, where if you dare whisper: “Are you there God?”

            There will never be an answer.

            When I say, “Show me proof,”

            And you give no proof, except for a catholic.org website with a headline that has multiple misspelled words, as if purposefully hinting at the fact that it has no fact to it, and when it references the idea of us living in a “matrix”, like in the movie, “The Matrix”, are you truly so sure your position can stand?

            Do the words “vested interest” mean anything to you?

            Like me or dislike me, the truth doesn’t care how you feel, nor does it care how I feel.

            The truth will vanish us both into the darkness of history and death, and thus both our stories shall end, and the cold, dark universe around us will not care. All you will be left with is knowing that you wasted hours of your life talking to an insane person.

            Just as I did. It’s not as if God is here to settle the dispute.

            I asked you to call upon him, but you made excuses. You pointed at a tree, and said “This is proof of God.”

            It’s a tree, you filthy liar. The universe is not proof of anything but itself. Are your logical faculties so muddled you cannot comprehend this?

            However, there is one truth that is self evident: You’re a fucking moron for taking this so seriously.

          • Eric Newsom

            You’re the one who kept referring to “G”od in you’re comments. You’re own words say that you believe in God, until you decided to switch to your other personality.

          • Eric Newsom

            The proof of God, for me, is in the creation around us. Even many physicists today are agreeing in intelligent design and that there must have been a creator – even Darwin believed in a creator. If you want to believe that there were some random gasses in space (where did these gasses come from) (where did space come from), and they combined accidentally, then there was a mysterious ignition source which caused a huge explosion that somehow started the universe in all it’s complexity, including the complexity of life on this planet (which is the only life we know of thus far), then you’re free to believe that. Personally, when I look at the vastness of the universe, that there is no end to it that we know of, complete with light (where’d that come from), darkness (where’d that come from), gravity (where’d that come from), galaxies that are huge beyond or imaginations and number in at least the billions, suns with orbiting planets, planets with orbiting moons, the complexity of life on this planet down to the complexity of a single cell, to the complexity of the human body with chromosomes and DNA. Human conscientiousness, what is that? How is it we inherently know right from wrong, how’d that happen? If a Great White Shark eats a surfer, has the shark done wrong, or was it just hungry? If a human eats a surfer, was it wrong, and how do we know? It seems to me to make much more sense on a purely intellectual level that there had to be a creator who said, “Let there be”, and there was, rather than all we observe in our own world, to the universe around us, happening simply by coincidence – that seems illogical to me.

          • P0xi

            I don’t think many physicists agree.

            I think most scientists and philosophers do not believe in any god, according to statistics that I have read. Please look them up yourself, to see it with your own eyes.

            To ask: Where did it come from?

            That is noble.

            To make up an answer that just happens to be an ancient god? That is not acceptable to me.

            There must be a real answer. Something that has as much proof for it as the rest of the universe does.

            If I do not see real proof, then why assume?

    • Keith Rogers

      No-Adultery is a sin involving married people.And if the only problem with homosexuality is that it’s sex outside marriage-then the church can simply transpose the same ethic for gays as for straights-sex only within gay marriage.Not that I think that’s in the least practical or desirable.

      • Eric Newsom

        The Bible, if that’s your standard and it may not be, generally mentions adultery and fornication in the same sentence. Thus the “sin” would be not just adultery (if it involves a married person), but fornication which is sex between two unmarried people. Though you certainly may argue the validity of the Bible, it is very clear that Holy matrimony is between a man and a woman. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” Genesis 2:24, Ephesians 5:31, Matthew 19:5, and Mark 10:7. Romans 1:26-28 “26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Jude 1:5-8 “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men. 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. I could go on-and-on as there are many Scriptures much the same. However, the question of this topic is whether same sex attraction in itself is a sin. Though I believe it to be part of the consequence of a fallen world, I’m not sure the attraction itself would be, though we do sin in thought, word, and deed – Jesus said, “If a man thinks of committing adultery, he has committed adultery.”

        • Keith Rogers

          First of all I don’t think ypu can insert words into scripture that aren’t there.Jesus said adultery not “porneia”.If he had wanted to broaden it put he would have used an appropriate word.
          Secondly & more fundamentally the word “porneia ” from which our word fornication is derived DOES NOT mean “no sex outside marriage”.Nowhere in the Bible is sex outside marriage per se condemned.”Porneia” refers to incest and the other sexual taboos in Jewish law.In fact,we find copious evidence of righteous patriarchs in the O.T blessed by God-having sex outside marriage.Abraham,Josh us and Solomon-to name just 3-all had concubines.God expresses no disapproval and in fact blesses and uses all of them.The song of Solomon celebrates the awesome wonder of erotic love-between unmarried people.
          Therefore looking with sexual desire at another person-if you & they are unmarried-is no sin at all-but a God given sexual desire-as rejoiced over in the Song of Solomon.
          Yes Jesus does indeed state that a man will leave his mother and cleave to his wife-in the context of condemning divorce .But what you & other conservatives fail to mention is that Jesus goes on to qualify this teaching:-
          “..for their eunuchs who have been so from birth,eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men,and eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom” (Matthew 19:12-13)
          Eunuchs “made so by men” are castrated males and eunuchs “for the sake of the kingdom” are christians who decide not to marry so as to evangelise.However the 1st category-“eunuchs from birth” refers to an innate unsuitability for (hetero) marriage.Conservative scholar Robert Gagnon concludes that this refers to innately homosexual men.In the ancient world eunuchs often looked after the king’s harem and were well known to be gay-one of the reasons they were apparently chosen and there is .evidence from classical authors for this.So Jesus himself states that some men are born gay.
          I have had this debate multiple times over the “clobber” passages so this feels deja vous.
          Romans 1 is in the context of wicked,idolatrous pagan rites where statues of animals were worshipped. Paul states that men “abandoned their natural interest in women”.They made a conscious choice to stop desiring women & go against their nature and lust after men in pagan orgies.This doesn’t describe homosexuality.Innately gay men do not “give up an interest in women” because they have never been attracted to them.Gay men do not choose their sexuality -it is a given,an ontological reality.If gay christians “chose” their sexuality ten they woukd be able to easily give it up.Yet the failure of ex gay ministries in changing orientation proves it is involuntary. Corinthians is referring to ancient Greek pederasty-where it was common for a married straight man to have sex with youths-basically rent boys-this is the cultural context that is condemned. The word “homosexuals” didn’t even exist in antiquity snd so this is a mistranslation.And Sodom & Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality.Ezekiel makes it clear that the sin of Sodom was injustice & the oppression of the poor. The story is about gang rape.
          None of these passages have anything to do with innate homosexuals and certainly do not condemn loving gay relationships. They are about abuse,idolatry and the humiliation of males by males.You wouldn’t use such hetetosexual behaviour as a generic condemnation of heterosexuality so why use these to condemn gay love?
          Also let’s talk about the elephant in the room..the passages in the Bible that rejoice and celebrate the same sex love of Jonathan and David.Sorry but the allusions to the “bond between their souls “-and “Jonathan’s love for David exceeded that for a woman”-and his enemy attacks him for “choosing David”.Let us just be honest. This was a deeply loving gay relationship.No two straight male friends would make these comments about mere friendship.

        • Keith Rogers

          Hi Eric
          Yes Of course being a Christian I regard biblical inspiration as important.I’m not saying we should disregard the bible but actually understand it better rather than misconstrue it.
          If Jesus had meant to widen the remit he would have used other words.Adultery very strictly refers to sexual infidelity by a married person.Jesus isn’t denouncing sexual desire per se (or he would have used a more general term)-but only in the context of adultery because it is a betrayal of your spouse.
          “Porneia” which we translate as fornication doesn’t mean sex outside marriage “Porneia” doesn’t translate as such but refers to idolatrous sex,incest and of course includes adultery. It alludes to breaking the rules of the Torah which never forbids all sex outside marriage.In fact,the song of Solomon celebrates the beauty of erotic love between unmarried partners.The OT prophets mostly had concubines or were polygamous.

          • Eric Newsom

            Hello Keith,
            Thanks for your reply, and a civil discourse. Though I’m always open to learning new things in God’s Word, I find it a stretch to justify homosexual relationships (the acts themselves) according to God’s Word as I understand it, but will certainly read those verses again from your perspective. If in fact the relationship between David and Jonathan was a homosexual one, and it may very well have been from what we know about David, it doesn’t necessarily mean God approved of it and the statement that there was a “bond between their souls” may simply be poetic showing their great love for one another. I fully agree the attraction itself isn’t sinful which is the question of this blog. As I’ve studied and understood the Old Testament, God allowed polygamy and concubines, but didn’t necessarily give it his blessing – polygamy perhaps to populate the earth. In the New Testament, one of the qualifications of an officer in the church was to be the “husband of one wife”, and would seem to be the standard for everyone, as those standards for a leader in the church should be the standard for which we all strive to achieve. As a Christian, my response to gay and lesbian friends (in my own heart and mind) is that I love them, and their homosexuality is between them and God, and is really none of my business. This is not only a practice of mine with gays and lesbians in the secular world, but Christian gays I know as well. If they can justify their homosexuality with God in His Word, that’s their business and is between them and God. For me, I believe the Word clearly states that it’s wrong for me. I can assure you I’m never, and am in no way in a position to judge others for their actions. All I have to do is look at my own life, and realize how I fall short of the glory of God each, and every day. Thanks for the discussion, and your perspective.

        • Keith Rogers

          With regard to biblical passages that supposedly condemn homosexuality-thr story of Sodom has nothing at all to do with innate homosexuality but is about gang rape.Ypu wouldn’t condemn heterosexuality because of men raping women nor should we do so with homosexuality. Ezekiel suggests the sin of Sodom is oppression of the poor and injustice not gay sex.
          Romans 1 is to me-very clearly -referring to (straight) men “abandoning their natural interest in women” and lusting after each other as part of idolatrous sex orgies.Innately gay men do not “abandon their interest in women” because they never had such desire for women!!-this passage doesn’t speak of congenital homosexuality and it certainly isn’t my story I’m no idolater and don’t experience opposite sex attraction.
          Corinthians needs to be understood in its proper context-Greek pederasty and prostitution where an older married man woukd often pay a young man (a rent boy basically) for sex.
          Jesus himself acknowledges in Matthew that some are simply born gay-“some are born eunuchs”-even conservative scholars like Robert Gagnon accept this.
          And let us acknowledge the elephant in the room-the story of David & Jonathan.It defies credulity to suggest this was just a male friendship. It is obviously a gay love relationship -and an explicitly covenanted one.We are told there is “a bond between their souls” “Jonathan’s love for David was greater than that for a woman” and David is accused of “choosing Jonathan”.Add to that the fact that David strips naked and adorns Jonathan with his clothes I rest my case.No two straight men woukd ever behave in these ways!

  • mike

    “Homosexual desire was not part of God’s initial design but came running
    in on the heels of Original Sin. It is utterly unnatural.”

    Lust of any kind was not part of God’s initial design.
    Singling out lustful SSA making it worse than lustful OSA is wrong. It is precisely why the church failed SSA’d people and still does! And it’s why SSA’d folk feel less Christian than their OGA’d counterparts. Your dichotomy of natural/unnatural is a false one and seriously unhelpful for the church to wake up to deal with all lust among its people. Singling out SSA’d folk as worse Christians is an unhelpful message Matt.

  • Racheal Bella

    Weather or not I agree with your point in this article I do commend you on not using personal subjective experience to rationalize your own behavior (which all Christians do). I would have been very easy for you (and helped you) to say “Yes, homosexual desire IS natural, yet still sinful”. Too many Christians not only excuse their own sin- but their propensity to that sin- which is sad. So on that- I support you. Though I would differ with you in viewing the temptation to be unnatural. That’s not for you (or us) to worry about. It is not God’s intention for babies to be born without arms- but it happens. How it happened is not for us to speculate. God allowed it. Spending time wondering “Am I natural or unnatural like this?” is in insult to the Creator who allowed you to be born that way. Overtime the baby can thank God he was born without arms or legs and not hold some hidden secret thought in the back of his mind about how wrong and unfair it is. God knows what he is doing. Do not act on your sexual desires but thank Him and praise Him for letting you be gay. It’s not like Satan pulled a fast one on God.

  • Daryl Bulych

    Anyone who has engaged in homosexual sexual activities will need to seek and undergo deliverance as many demons have entered in through that activity as is the case with any sexual sins. The continued sexual attraction signals the demons are still there and need to be cast out before the soul can be restored and healed. Also all soul ties created with each sexual partner need to be confessed and renounced and then spiritually broken. See Win Worley – Mass Deliverance on youtube.

    • Don’t know if I can remember all the guys I was with – had a stroke. Salvation is not based on works, it based on grace. I am thankful for this.

      • P0xi

        No, salvation IS based on works.

        You cannot simply say you are a good person.

        You must BE a good person if you want to be a good person.
        What you are not realizing is that to have grace, you must be a good person who does good things.

        Having grace will mean you live a life where you are kind to all people no matter what, where you forgive people for their harmful actions, and where you help those who need help, but only if they ask for it.

        Don’t try to control people, I mean.

        It is simply too convenient to think that a person can be rewarded for doing nothing.

        Life is not that easy, and nor is the after-life.
        You need to be a good person to be a good person.

        That is how it is.

    • In thinking about this post, I had to have some clarity of thought. My homosexual inclinations are not demon driven. It is a part of sin nature. If they were demon driven, then it would imply some special sort of sin, that I would not be guilty of. I could literally say “The devil made me do it.”, absolving me of any responsiblity. I am guilty of living a sinful life in the past. Jesus Christ forgave me of my sins. ALL of them. Not just the gay ones. The Holy Spirit gave me power of them, allowing me to be celibate for twelve years. Am I still tempted by sin? Absolutley! I’ll bet you are too. I have been given the choice to not act on my lusts, and I choose not too. This is a reality that I will have to live with until I go home or the Lord returns. No man I have ever met has been delivered from this desire fully. The one who came closest was ‘cured’ by not having any desire whatsoever. The thought makes him nauseous. But he still feels lust.

      • P0xi

        Instead of being celibate because you are in a religious cult, perhaps you should try to find love, and enjoy the pleasure of sex.

        Don’t have sex with strangers though.
        Find a man who will truly love you, and then love him back.
        There will be no children, which is sad, but there will be love.

        Love is something this world needs. End your celibacy in the name of love, and find a lover for yourself.

        It is time for you to stop being lonely. God is with you if you do this with truth and love in your heart.

        • Because of your lack of knowledge on who I am, I am giving you a link to my blog. It is an adventure, into places that are sometimes uncomfortable. It is my life and how I came to God. It is many posts, but to get the whole scope, read the whole thing.

          https://brokenbutredeemedblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/14/introduction/

          • P0xi

            I wonder if you have any idea who I am.

            I know everything about you. I know your story, your life, your past.
            I know your hopes and fears, and all the things that make you smile.

            I also know that you’re lying to yourself. You have not come to God.

            You have arrived at an illusion built by a dangerous political cult, one that wants to brainwash you into thinking that your innate desire are wrong, and their desires are right.

            What’s right for them is not right for you. As long as you follow Christian law, you are not following God’s law. You are following cult law, and you are making a very dangerous mistake.

            You only get this message so many times in life. I encourage you to understand what I’m saying, instead of playing the fool.

          • I don’t mind getting to know you. I am celibate, and hurting no one. If there is no God, then I have only hurt myself. But God is real…saw your comment on my blog…

  • Jeannie Oakes Herod

    I agree. All Christians are capable of committing all sin. This is why we must be careful what we allow our mind to entertain, be it a magazine, or movie, a friendship even. Anything which pulls us away from God and Christ – like behaviour, can be tossed into our minds by satan to tempt you to sin. You spoke correctly, when sinful or lustful thoughts or feelings come into our minds, instead of dwelling on them, we should immediately turn them over to Christ, who stands strongly to help us slay that dragon. We cannot do it alone, the Bible is clear on this. We need the help of our Saviour. Thank you for sharing your testimony. May God bless you as you continue your walk with Him.

    • P0xi

      No, I disagree.

      I think it is wise to think every thought through, all the way to the end.
      I don’t think trying to avoid thinking about things is healthy for your brain.

      If God puts a thought into your head, you must think about it. Why wouldn’t you?
      If you think about it, you’ll end up with an answer.

      If you don’t think about it, you will never know the truth. Honestly, I hate to use a mean name, but you’re a total moron if you deliberately avoid using your brain. No, that’s not an insult, that’s seriously what you are.

      You need to use your brain to think about things. Don’t take this religious stuff so seriously, ok? You need to get out of the house more, and see the world or something, because honestly, it sounds like you’re in a cult.

      Please think about forbidden things. It’s ok to think. If it’s wrong, then after thinking about it all the way through, you will find out it’s wrong. If it’s right, then you will find that answer as well.

      But you will never know if you do not think about it. Let all thoughts enter your head, and think each one through all the way to the very end. Don’t skip a single conclusion. Don’t miss any data.

      Do the math, look at the facts, think about the emotions and ideas, and find an answer that is true. Don’t just believe what people tell you.

      You NEED to think for yourself, or you are not a real person.
      You are a machine.

      • TROLL ALERT!!

      • Eric Newsom

        I’m afraid they’ve shut our thread down as I can’t respond to your last comment, which is just as well because civil discourse with you is impossible. You still don’t seem to understand. I don’t care whether or not you believe in God, and I’ve not spent any time trying to convince you of such, but rather to show you what a “nasty little man” you are for condemning those who do. Because your heart has been hardened, you’ve been deceived, you have scales over your eyes and are blind, God could come to you from the clouds in a blinding light and you still wouldn’t believe – the Bible actually tells us this. Thus, there is no way I could convince you of His existence with simple arguments. It is likely you are one of the reprobate, and unless God breathes life into your cold, dead heart and removes the scales from your eyes, you will likely die as such. Though I’ve enjoyed making good sport of you, I actually feel sorry for you from that regard. As much as I hate to, I’ve grown bored of you and will move on to another troll to harass. Thanks for all the fun.

  • Great stuff, Matt! Everyone’s tempted by something — even the Bible-believing Christians you wrote about. Sexually, emotionally, mentally, physically — we all have a vice apart from Christ. But what do we DO with all those messy temptations? Christians: let’s cut to the chase already!

    Grateful for your added voice in these navigations with faith and homosexuality, Matt. Fighting the fight with you!

    • P0xi

      What do we do with temptations?

      Give in to your instincts. Live the life you want to live. Not a life that is just a lie. Virtue for the sake of virtue is just a band-aid. If something is a good idea, then it will appeal to us. All people want to do the right thing. Why would God even allow us to see good in evil?

      If it seems good and holy to my instincts, the instincts that go beyond just what I’ve been told in life, then I’ll accept that. NOTHING society teaches me will overcome my instincts.

      Yes, even the BIBLE is worth less than my instincts. The Bible is written by MAN.
      The one who held the pen to write the bible was a HUMAN, just like me or you, and that person might be wrong, a liar, or maybe he had evil in his heart, just enough to corrupt the word of God.

      My instincts are something that go beyond my education, beyond my religion, beyond societal law, beyond all things, and those instincts are my direct connection to God. There is no more powerful connection to my origin than my instincts.

      When my instincts say “This is good and right” or “This is truly evil”, I trust them. I don’t trust you, I don’t trust them, I don’t trust the Bible, nor do I trust Islam, I don’t trust Hinduism, I don’t trust the government, I don’t even trust myself and my logic.

      I only trust my heart. My instincts. My heart is open to God, and I will never try to hurt someone or manipulate them. I want the world to be a better place, and because of that, I fully trust my instincts to tell me what is good and right.

      And I will speak the truth: Sex is NOT evil. Sex is how we gain new life. There is nothing evil about creating life. Sex cannot be evil. Even GAY sex is not evil, if done with love and friendship in your heart.

      Every day on earth is hell for some people. They will take whatever pleasure they can get, and when they are ready, they will either feel love for a person, or they will still live their own life, and if you judge them, you are the one committing the greatest sin.

      I don’t judge, I will not be judged. I love everyone, no matter what.

      If you judge, you are telling someone that they are evil. If you think they are evil, then you can only hate them. You cannot love evil, can you? True evil is out there.

      True evil hurts people. True evil causes true harm. Not just some mythological “Sodom and Gomorrah” type harm. I’m talking about murder, rape, theft, beating people, manipulating them, cheating people, that sort of harm. There is a real problem in society, but it’s not gay people.

      I don’t love evil, so I don’t judge people as evil. I see people as people, trying to do the right thing in a world so hard, so confusing, so painful, that NO HUMAN can know what is TRULY right.

      I just rely on my instincts, because I haven’t got much else.

      • TROLL ALERT!

      • Eric Newsom

        My instincts may tell me to murder. My instincts may tell me to steal, lie, rape, and yes – even commit adultery. That’s why we have laws – in order to control our instincts. For those of us who believe in the Judeo Christian God, those laws are not just limited to the civil authority over us, but the moral law presented to us in the Word. If the world was full of humans who lived only based upon their instincts, it would be a much more dangerous world than it already is. Yes, humans “can know what is TRULY right”. We are born with a sense of right and wrong based upon the moral law itself. We instinctively know murder is wrong – stealing, lying, etc. That’s what separates us from the animal world, and was part of the consequence of the fall in the Garden of Eden – that our eyes would be opened and we would “Be like God, knowing both good, and evil.” I don’t judge either – I leave that to God. If someone wants to practice homosexuality, that’s their business and is between them and God, whether they believe in Him or not. But at the same time, I’m not going to call good evil, and evil good as it is defined in my instruction manual for living – the Bible. I’m a recovering alcoholic and have been sober for six years. I believe I was born with the genetic markers that make me an alcoholic, and if I relied on my “instincts”, I would still be a raging alcoholic. But, the Word tells me that drunkards will not see the kingdom of heaven, thus I choose not to act on my natural desire to drink.

        • P0xi

          Then what has Christians going to war?

          • Eric Newsom

            why have, not “what has”

        • P0xi

          You live a life just because a book tells you to?

          Surely you can imagine there are other reasons to not drink.
          A sober mind is a mind that can write poetry and create art.
          A sober mind is a mind that can do good work, and have good conversation.
          A sober mind is a mind that allows you to raise a family, and be a good member of your community.

          Now, none of those motivations have anything to do with a god.

          If you have an instinct to create art, to speak, to work, to have family, to be part of a community, aren’t those enough to get you to control your desire to drink?

          Must it really be a supernatural god from an ancient cult? Is that really your reasoning here?
          Supernatural god from an ancient desert cult? Are you a grown man?

          • Eric Newsom

            You live a life just because civil laws tell you what you can and can’t do? You’re response is a typical one I hear from people who can’t form a logical argument and lack debating skills. You resort to trying to belittle and demean because of the knowledge of your own inferiorities and mental limitations. Where’s all the love you speak of – I notice that tends to fly out the window with your species when you disagree with someone. Your arguments are puerile and over-dramatized. You lack any sense of structure, character, and the Aristotelian unities.

          • P0xi

            My love grows to passionate fury when I see the world enslaved by a pyramid scheme cult.

            It boils down to this:

            Believe and obey, and get a reward.
            Disbelieve or disobey, and get punished.

            Heaven and hell are fabrications, and the rules are qualifiers for this imaginary prize.

            My fury is immense at how I see humans enslaved to an ancient cult.
            Do you think I can contain my rage at the idea that everyone around me, my own family, my community, is enslaved to some cult?

            If not Christianity, Islam. If not Islam, Judaism. If not Judaism, another cult.
            Another supernatural religion to give humans false hope of everlasting life, while their only true life is bound by laws invented by cultists.

            Is death truly so terrifying?

            Have courage. See through my eyes, and you will know the truth.

          • Eric Newsom

            Your “fury” is your own personal problem. Once again, you’re stating your opinions based upon nothing but your own “feelings”. Though there are plenty of people in the world more intelligent than you or I combined who believe in the Judeo/Christian God, you shouldn’t put them down because they do – it makes your alleged arguments seem even more ridiculous. Again, if you want to be an atheist, be an atheist. I you want to not be involved in organized religion, don’t. But don’t put down people who do – based upon your own twisted logic, it makes you just like the people you desire to degrade.

          • P0xi

            You are deluded and wrong.

            You have no idea how wrong you are. Intelligent people do not believe in cult mythology.

            That is a fact. Intelligence is not as variable as you think it is.

            You are being naive and foolish here, because people who believe in cult mythology are brainwashed by their religion. This is obvious, and if a person cannot comprehend this, they are not intelligent.

            It does not matter what degrees they have. It does not matter who their friends are. It does not matter how popular they are. Believing cult mythology is not intelligent behavior.

        • Keith Rogers

          Yes Eric but are all instincts that break the law of love (the only law under grace)-murder,adultery and alcoholism are unloving/hurtful to ourselves and others.
          Committed gay relationships emphasise mutual support, affection and warm.companionship.

          • Eric Newsom

            My comment was in response to POxi’s statement that we should “give in to our temptations”. He doesn’t seem to have any boundaries – whatever feels right, must be right. If it feels good, do it. He doesn’t even seem to acknowledge boundaries under civil authority. This is the context of my comment. The topic question is, “Is Same-Sex Attraction a sin?”. Even if you use the Bible as your moral standard, the attraction itself wouldn’t be a sin. It may be the result of a fallen world, but the attraction is not. Alcoholism itself is not “unloving/hurtful to ourselves and others”. Alcoholism is a disorder with which I was born, also the result of a fallen world. I choose to use the Bible as my moral guide for living, and it tells me drunkenness is a sin, not alcoholism. Thus, I choose not to give in to my temptation to drink, because my disorder of alcoholism would make me a drunkard.

  • JonathanMiles

    So well said brother Matt. Proud of you!

  • Rollan McCleary

    Gay/Queer activists can prove disturbingly dogmatic, intolerant and dismissive, but so
    too can gay Christians. As the first person to obtain a doctorate from any
    religious studies dept anywhere in the assessment of gay spiritualities I can,
    alas, witness to the negative attitudes of both parties. Leading gay Christians
    I could name can’t be bothered to cite me as any pioneering authority or just reply
    to me. So you may well merely confirm a pattern if you hit delete on the
    following which nonetheless deserves to be said and pondered.

    Just suppose for a moment that nearly everything you and correspondents here are saying is off-centre, wrong. Imagine that a gay eros, or at least some of it, was right and intended
    as part of creation itself, even necessarily so because, as especially some
    Jewish Christians like Canon Paul Oppenheimer and Bishop Hugh Montefiore have
    with reverence maintained, even Jesus himself was likely gay – gay being a psychology
    before simply sex. Would Jesus even have been a truly representative
    incarnation of humanity which is made up of man and woman if he hadn’t been
    something like a female soul in a male body which is what the first German gay
    theorists maintained the gay male was – an idea influenced as it happens by
    certain mystical Jewish ideas?

    At this time of year I can well recommend reading the new edition of my “Testament of the Magi” which if it doesn’t solve the Bethlehem Star mystery, let anyone tell me what does and ever will? goo.gl/I28aCm Its inquiry has to be the end of era solution to the mystery the beginning of the era introduced. But in especially its Part Two you will encounter things and indeed biblical ideas which can shed light on sexuality and spirituality issues in a way never quite seen or treated
    before. For those who wouldn’t care to spend time on a book (even with a cheap
    kindle version of it available), some unusual insights are presented (including
    with a perhaps unexpected critique from me of the mind changes of Alan Chambers) in the two
    part feature article at goo.gl/bD2gHy. There is a key to unlocking the mystery of things gay, but who wants to find or use it?

  • P0xi

    Are you really so sure that this is part of God’s plan?
    I do understand that it’s in the Bible, but it’s also very politically convenient.

    I’ll say it straight, without any twists: The Bible could have been modified by evil people in order to get you to judge people for something that has nothing to do with you.

    Whether or not gay people are evil or not has NOTHING to do with your life. It is THEIR life, and by trying to judge them by writing a post like this, and then confirming nothing more than the most baseline, mainstream opinion, I really am not so sure your brain is turned on.

    It seems like you just accept what’s written in the Bible without thinking about it.
    I will not tolerate foolishness. Forgiveness is the ONLY option when it comes to non-harmful crime.
    To even DARE consider hurting a person, or trying to control their life, for a non-violent, non-harmful “crime” is very much out of line, and simply writing this sort of article is something that I would never approve of, especially in the current political climate.

    Do you want a holocaust to happen or something? Do you want mass death because self-righteous religious people are going around saying that gay people really ARE evil? The next step to recognizing evil is ending it.

    If it is truly evil to be gay, then they must be killed.

    But I would not be so sure that they are evil.

    Four things in life stand out to me as evil: Murder, theft, rape, and cheating or manipulating people.

    Having sex with people who give consent does not stand out as evil. The instincts that God gave me do NOT inform that that gay people are evil or wrong. It informs me that people who hurt others are wrong. It informs me that people who try to control others are wrong.

    And it informs me that YOU, a person who is inciting hatred towards creations of god, is wrong.

    You are wrong, and you are the evil one here. Please turn your heart towards a path of righteousness and non-judgement. As humans on this Earth, we must recognize how difficult life is, and how confusing it can be. The Bible is likely modified to manipulate people into fulfilling political goals, such as massacres against the innocent, or robbing people using tithes.

    Use your brain for the love of God, and recognize the dangerous things you are saying.
    You are spreading reasons for hatred in this world, and you will be damned.

    I’d rather be friends with a hundred gay people, than a single person who spits at another person just for being gay.

  • A profound dive into self-denial and dangerous preaching. Always a good combo from someone who can’t accept who he actually is and in turn falls victim to misinterpretation of the Bible.

  • Ernie

    Great post Matt. I think you nailed it! Thanks for sharing.

  • Bethany Georgia

    Very honored by your vulnerability and encouraged by your commitment to Christ! I will continue to pray for strength, grace and an overwhelming sense of God’s love and Holy Spirit power for all my brothers and sisters in this situation. Thank you for being brave enough to share your story!

  • WaveDave

    Thank you so much for this post. I grew up in a conservative church that was part of a conservative, very Biblical denomination. The pastor, who recently retired, preached about sin almost every sermon, and homosexuality was mentioned many times. One day he got up to preach and in his sermon he said that there may be people in this church who are same-sex attracted. He went on to say that being SSA/SSO was not a sin in and of itself…in fact those who are and yet seek to live for Christ and follow Him are the real heroes of the faith.

    I almost cried…being SSA myself. In my experience, the church has many times failed those who are…offering only pious platitudes, quick fixes and microwave surgery. It is never easy…rejection, “turn or burn”, stereotypes etc. are hurdles not easily overcome. The church should be a place of help and hope and willingness to walk with someone who is without condemnation. Some may change completely and others will face a life-long struggle. I have known times of fierce temptation, but the fact of momentary pleasure cannot compare to hearing the Master say, “Well done…” Life goes by so quickly and I have found serving Christ by serving others to be a joy.

    I have a feeling that across this world sit many people each week in a church pew who are SSA and would give anything to have someone just to listen and not reject them out-of-hand.

    • For me it is a lifelong struggle. For most who are SSA it is this way, if a person is honest with themselves. There is no cure, because if there was there would be a cure for sin. Our cure awaits the coming of our Lord. We have to await him.

      • Eric Newsom

        Thanks for openly sharing your struggles in this blog. Though people are often offended when I compare Christian gay’s and lesbian’s struggles with alcoholism, I believe there are some similarities. I’m Christian, recovering alcoholic and have been sober for 6 years – every day is still a struggle for me. As I’ve said a couple of times in this blog, as a result of a fallen world, I believe I was born with specific genetic markers that make me an alcoholic, and there is “no cure” – that’s not a sin, just part of a fallen world. However, the act of drunkenness is clearly a sin for me according to Scripture. I would think it much the same with a Christian’s struggles with homosexuality.

        • It is very much like substance abuse. This is compounded by the LGBT community telling me I am born this way and I can not change. Who put them in charge? Where were they when I had my stroke? For all their talk of love and inclusivity, they are down right mean and viscious when you dare to leave the fold.

          • Artista

            They’re downright mean and vicious toward each other. Bisexuals get a lot of hell from some in the gay community. And oddly, that sub-group doesn’t get much voice, outside from the collective organization. The silent B, indeed!

          • Yeah, the first I learned when I had my stroke was there is no love amongst the LGBT community. None of them came to see me. They were probably too involved with their own self interests of pleasure through sex and substance abuse. And they are so hateful towards each other, and I didn’t realize it until I was near death. Now I see it all.

    • Eric Newsom

      Christ lovingly forgave the woman “caught in the very act of adultery” (BTW, where was the man?). But, he also told her to “Go, and sin no more”.

  • Jason Brand

    If there is a God, I seriously hope he has bigger fish to fry than two people of the same sex being together. If not, it’s not a God that I want to be associated with. What two people want to do in their bedroom has nothing to do with who they are. Gay people can be kind, generous, and the list goes on. And those are the things that count. Depriving yourself of love that doesn’t hurt anyone just can’t be the answer.

  • Keith Rogers

    Of course sexual orientation isn’t a sin!!-this is the mainstream view of conservative christianity-be it Roman Catholic or evangelical.To suggest that orientation is a sin is an extremist and cruel attitude.
    Our orientation is a given-an involuntary part of our make up-whether through heredity or environment.It is sadistic to say the least to load this burden of guilt upon gay christians-
    “Woe to you hypocrites and pharisees;you lay a heavy burden around men’s necks that you yourself cannot bear”.
    Personally I believe homosexuality is a natural innate orientation and that acting on it in a loving relational context isn’t a sin.
    Do not conflate sexual desire with lust.Sexual desire is God given;god created us and face us testorone or Oestrogen to make us sexual beings.To equate lust with all sexual desire is ludicrous.That would mean God created sin by creating us as sexual beings! !

    • Eric Newsom

      Being an alcoholic isn’t a sin, but drunkenness is – if you believe the Bible.