Are LGBT People Being Damaged By Traditional Christian Teaching?

I have always held a soft spot in my heart for the LGBT community—which was once my community—and have labored vigorously to write about sexuality and faith with gentleness and respect. I’ve never hammered down on gays with hellfire and brimstone; I’ve pled with them to receive the love of Jesus and relinquish their sins. I’ve never demonized people who experience same sex attraction or gender dysphoria; I’ve been clear that every human being is corrupt and in desperate need of transformation. I have publicly criticized the whole “pray the gay away” mess, being honest with my readers about my own ongoing experience of same-sex attraction. And I have continually called professing Christians to repent of their fear and hatred of the LGBT community.

Nevertheless, many voices in this community sharply declare me a self-loathing bigot. They say the words I write about faith and sexuality are perhaps the vilest, most damaging thing a struggling LGBT person could run across. They tell me that my “good news” is a damnable message that has led thousands of LGBT teens into depression and even to commit suicide. They say that I have gay blood on my hands—that the brand of Christianity I promote is directly responsible for the inner turmoil that has led so many gays to their self-inflicted deaths.

I want to spend the rest of this article speaking directly to these people—to LGBT men, women, and allies who despise the Christian message and vilify those who proclaim it. Have you ever pondered the possibility that your message may be the damaging one? Have you ever considered that it could be your beliefs that are wrong and harmful to people who experience same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria? You say my beliefs are flimsy because they are informed by a 2,000-year-old book. But what informs your beliefs? I know you say your worldview is grounded in biology and science—but is it really? You defend the moral goodness of homosexual behavior by arguing that a gay person is biologically hardwired to be attracted to the same sex. You say the gay person must live according to their supposed biological “wiring” in order to live a full and healthy life. Yet, when it comes to transgenderism, you say people should live in contradiction to their biological anatomy in order to live a full and healthy life. Maybe it’s just me, but that seems inconsistent.

Can you and I just admit that, at the end of the day, we both believe what we believe because it feels right to us? You look at the I decide what is best for me message of postmodern individualism, and it resonates with you. I look at the God decides what is best for me message of the age-old Scriptures, and it resonates with me. Personally, I think there is a plethora of objective evidence that supports the legitimacy of the Christian faith. But for the sake of this argument, I’m willing to say that you and I both believe what we believe simply because it’s what feels right to us. So, if we’re standing on equal ground as far as our reasons for believing what we believe, how can you assume with absolute certainty that I’m wrong and you’re right? There isn’t any objective, beyond-the-shadow-of-a-doubt “proof” that your beliefs are correct, is there? I know you don’t think there’s any chance you could be wrong, but just entertain this self-loathing bigot for a couple of minutes.

Let’s say there is a God, and, for our own good and flourishing, he has set boundaries around human sexuality. Let’s say “sin” isn’t just a figment of the religious imagination, but there really is something inside of every person that inclines us toward evil and self-destruction. Let’s say homosexual desires and gender dysphoria are byproducts of the sin within us, and as we indulge these distorted thoughts and desires, we intensify the sickness of our souls. If these things are true—and I believe they are—isn’t the message you propagate the harmful one?

When you encourage people to embrace and satisfy their homosexual desires (sin), aren’t you the one pushing people toward a “lifestyle” that is destructive to their overall wellbeing? When you encourage people to define themselves according to their gender dysphoria, aren’t you the one pushing them away from what is good (God) and right (the way he designed them) and toward increased confusion and dysfunction? If the God of the Bible is the true God and the content of the Bible is legitimate, aren’t you the one who is persuading people away from vitality, joy, and freedom—and perhaps fueling depression, substance abuse, and even suicide in the LGBT community?

And let’s say the cure for the human condition is found in Jesus. Let’s say he sacrificed himself to cleanse us from the guilt of sin, break us free from sin’s dominion, and, one day, free us from the presence of sin. Let’s say that cherishing Jesus, basking in his love for us, and denying our fleshly inclinations is where the most robust vitality, joy, and freedom are found. Isn’t the message of Christianity, then, the healing message? When followers of Jesus encourage LGBT persons to trust in Jesus and walk in ongoing repentance, are we not encouraging them to live in a way that is beneficial to their overall wellbeing? If separation from God is the deepest cause of all brokenness—including depression, addiction, and suicidal tendencies—isn’t being reconciled to God through Jesus exactly what the depressed, the addicted, and the suicidal need most?

I can only speak for myself, but living in submission to the Savior and enjoying his love for me have brought greater peace, happiness, and emotional stability into my life than embracing my homosexual feelings ever did. Do I have to resist strong desires on a daily basis? Yes. Is it sometimes extremely difficult? Sure. But doing so hasn’t been the doom and gloom experience many allege it to be. I don’t spend my days obsessing about same-sex desires and feeling miserable because I can’t pursue them; I spend my days obsessing about Jesus and feeling thankful that I get to pursue him! Living in relationship with a good and loving God has been a far more fulfilling experience than living according to my broken propensities. Believing and obeying the gospel have not caused me to be depressed or addicted; I was depressed and addicted when I was rejecting the gospel and embracing my sinful desires. Rather, walking in faith and repentance has set me free from depression and addiction!

I’m not asking you to admit, right now, that you’re wrong and all the Jesus stuff is right. I’m just asking you to begin considering the possibility. Could the message you think is so harmful actually be the message of healing that the LGBT community needs most?

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  • Kathy Snyder

    Thank you for being so transparent in your struggle and in your desire to please God and not man. Until God transforms the heart, people are going to hate your message. But we all need to be faithful messengers of the good news, with love and compassion, because we don’t know who God will save or when.

  • Brandon Burrell

    What a beautiful post Matt. I almost have tears in my eyes writing this. I, personally, am grateful for your ministry. I know many others are too. You remain in my prayers.

  • Andrea

    Thanks Matt for being so transparent and unbiased. I’m so grateful Jesus has brought your voice to the Christian and LGBT community alike.

  • Lyle Nelson

    Matt, I wish I had seen this article back in the days when I was in the gay lifestyle some 13-14 years ago. I think it would have turned my thoughts in the right direction more quickly. I struggled and struggled and struggled with whether homosexuality was right in God’s eyes. I so wanted it to be, and so I went ahead and pursued it, but there was often this “still, small voice” that I now know was the Holy Spirit trying to get my attention. Over time, that voice became louder and louder.

    Initially, I bought into the lies of pro-gay theology that involved supposed mistranslations of the homosexuality-condemning Biblical passages. I was not a Bible scholar, particularly in the original Biblical languages, so who was I to know for certain who was right? And somehow the idea that marriage and sex was to be restricted to one man married to one woman was never addressed in these critiques.

    So I sat myself down in front of my computer and began to research the arguments for and against the acceptability of homosexuality. I basically set aside the Biblical arguments, feeling I was unqualified to judge between the two alternative views. But I looked at things like the incidence of various diseases transmitted by certain homosexual activity (other than HIV). I remember listening to a sermon on the radio where a pastor talked about having a conversation with his 9-year old daughter about homosexuality; the daughter had looked at a couple of anatomically-correct plastic male dolls and innocently observed “But the parts don’t fit!” The wisdom of an innocent child!

    And I thought about the amount of brokenness I had seen in the gay world, remembering various gatherings where I thought “I don’t belong with any of these people!” Of course everyone is broken in some way, but this seemed to be extreme. “Gay”, other than in a very false-mask way, seemed to be the last term I would use to describe these people.

    And putting this altogether, in what I can only describe as a “Holy Spirit goose bump moment”, I KNEW what I needed to do, even though I really couldn’t explain exactly why. The still small voice had become too loud, and I knew I had to obey it and walk away, and so I did.

    As you said, Matt, the road of celibacy is not always an easy one to travel either. But anytime I am tempted to throw the towel in and give up, I remember the things I outlined above and think “I can’t give up; I know too much now!”

    • Barb

      God bless you!!! So glad you are finally FREE from that destructive life!

  • what sort of drug is milo on

    “Have you ever pondered the possibility that your message may be the damaging one? ”

    AKA “no John, it is YOU who are the zombie!!1!”

    Look, the difference between you and me is that I’m not trying to impose my beliefs upon you. Yes, I think your attitude is harmful and most likely isn’t beneficial for your mental health, but I don’t advocate passing laws that make it illegal for you to disavow/disengage from “the gay lifestyle” if that’s what you want. People like you, on the other hand, DO want to impose your beliefs on me when you try to make gay marriage illegal and fight against anti-discrimination/bullying measures protecting LGBT people and lament decisions like Lawrence v. Texas. (Granted, I don’t recall if you’re against the last two but I do remember your salty blog post after Obergefell.)

    Please stop with this disingenuous false equivalency.

    • Judy Ann Lyoness

      I think you are confusing the message of the gospel with the message of making laws to curb sin. For example, while alcohol is not good for your health in large amounts, banning it never did any good. Likewise, banning sexual activity on any level never changed anyone for the better or the worse. People do what they want to, and moralizing in our laws only puts added burdens on people. Jesus never tried to change laws. He changes hearts. That is why Jesus came, and why he hung on the cross to offer reconciliation to God. While I think that changing laws to allow things that violate God’s laws would be good for society, I do not want to see a return to law. Instead, I concentrate on seeing people saved, healed, and delivered. So did Jesus.

    • thatguyoverthere

      Marriage(man and woman) is equal. If you want to be with you’re gay partner, most western countries accept that. I’m against calling it a marriage as a same-sex couple isn’t the same as an opposite sex couple. While I’m against homosexuality, I think gay couples should be recognised and in quite a few countries, they can be, through civil unions.

    • Adam Jenson

      Funny how imposing gay marriage on a nation is NOT forcing a belief on someone but the opposite is. Funny how the forced labor (i.e. slavery) of having a baker make a cake for a gay wedding is not forcing a belief on someone but the opposite is.

  • Taylor

    “Could the message you think is so harmful actually be the message of healing that the LGBT community needs most?”

    Frankly, I find nothing healing in believing in a message that you can not possible prove, is even true.

    Live your life however you want, believe your unprovable beliefs, just don’t expect everyone to hop aboard your little faith train.

    When you can actually logically explain why an ALL KNOWING GOD, knowingly creates people that he KNOWS will be gay, when he doesn’t have to create them at all, then maybe you’ll get somewhere in attempting to convince me the that “message” you want me to heed is actually worthwhile.

    Until then, not so much. I simply will not be controlled by a belief based on faith as opposed to fact!

    • Bill Bushey

      I’m confused on a couple of points here:

      1.) If you insist on provable evidence, then why would you support homosexuality? I mean, they say they’re “born that way,” but to this day, there’s no science to prove that. In fact, there’s science that proves it’s NOT hereditary.

      2.) Segueing into my second question, if people aren’t born gay, then they have to have picked it up sometime during their lives, so it becomes clear that God doesn’t MAKE people gay. He didn’t make us into puppets, either. Why bother creating people and then control their lives and their decisions? Wouldn’t you resent God so much more if you KNEW He was keeping you from making your own choices in life? God’s not cruel, because He left CLEAR instructions on how to live the right way, but He also gave us the free will to choose whether or not we want to follow His advice.

      • Taylor

        “If you insist on provable evidence, then why would you support homosexuality? I mean, they say they’re “born that way,” but to this day, there’s no science to prove that. In fact, there’s science that proves it’s NOT hereditary.”

        I am my own proof. I know for a fact that I did not choose to be attracted to someone of the same sex. If you say that I chose my sexual orientation, it is up to you to prove it. It’s not up to me to disprove it.

        “Segueing into my second question, if people aren’t born gay, then they have to have picked it up sometime during their lives, so it becomes clear that God doesn’t MAKE people gay. He didn’t make us into puppets, either. Why bother creating people and then control their lives and their decisions?”

        LOLOL….your sexual orientation isn’t something you “pick up” like the flu!! It’s not communicable. At least mine wasn’t. I’m pretty sure, I never passed on being gay to any one else.

        If it’s something that can be “picked up” where did the first homosexual come from, and where did he “pick it up”??

        If your god is all knowing, then he most certainly did make people who he knew were going to be gay, even before they existed. You don’t get to pick and choose when your god is all knowing and when he isn’t. He knew that I was going to be gay, he had the choice to not allow for my creation, if he didn’t like the fact that I was going to be gay, but he allowed me to be born instead.

        Which leads me to believe that 1) he doesn’t care that I’m gay, or 2) he purposefully created me, knowing that I would end up in hell.

        Why on earth would I worship a being that creates people who he knows are going to be tortured for all eternity when he doesn’t have to create them at all, and absolutely no one would know the difference?

        If your all knowing god purposefully creates people that he knows are going to end up being tortured…then your god is not loving, kind or benevolent. He’s a sadist!

        “Wouldn’t you resent God so much more if you KNEW He was keeping you from making your own choices in life? God’s not cruel, because He left CLEAR instructions on how to live the right way, but He also gave us the free will to choose whether or not we want to follow His advice.”

        If I didn’t know that I was able to make choices….why would I resent your ridiculous god for not allowing me to do so?

        You can only resent not having something, if you realize you don’t have it. If no one had choice, then no would would know that choice even existed. Problem solved!

        • Barb

          Actually, homosexual behavior CAN be “picked up” – Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” (I Corinthians 15:33) The sexual revolution in this country that started decades ago has resulted in a breakdown of previous codes of moral decency. Thus, cultural influences have created a moral free-fall that is spiraling out of control. It’s everywhere! On TV and in movies especially. Young people are easily influenced and constantly bombarded with ungodly messages about their sexuality.

          • Taylor

            And where did the 1st homosexual, pick up this behavior??

          • Barb

            From the sin nature that is within every human being. Without God’s mercy and intervention, we all are lost. That’s why Jesus came – to seek and save the lost. Lostness is in all of us and manifests itself in various wrong behaviors, not just sexual acts.

          • Taylor

            Sorry, but that’s not “picking it up” that’s being born with it.

            So, you’ve actually made the case that gay people are born that way! Thanks!

            And you continue to ignore that your ALL KNOWING GOD knows who is going to accept Jesus, before he ever creates them. If he doesn’t know this, then he is NOT all knowing.

            Is he, or isn’t he?

          • Barb

            Yes, we are all born with a sin nature. But there are also strong cultural influences that factor in as well. When I was a teen, I hung out with the wrong crowd and did some foolish things like getting drunk, etc. I knew in my heart they were wrong, but did them anyway. That did not excuse my behavior, but the more I did them, the more excuses I made for myself.

            That’s what gays are doing by demanding marriage rights and balking at anyone who dares to disagree with their lifestyle. They are endlessly justifying themselves and demanding the right to continue practicing what they know in their hearts is wrong. The Supreme Court may have decided by one vote – due to political pressure – to grant that right last year, but the Supreme Judge of the Universe is the One to whom even the distinguished judges on that court will answer to someday.

          • Taylor

            I have no interest in your life history…I don’t care who you hung out with or what you did.

            The idea that you think I have to justify myself to you, borders on the ludicrous, why in the world would I have to justify my existence or my sexual orientation, or what consenting adult I choose to have sex with TO YOU???

            You can disagree with my so called “lifestyle” all you want. I DO NOT CARE..you aren’t the first and you won’t be the last! What you can’t do is insist that the laws of this country that are based on our Constitution, should be able to discriminate against me, because you don’t like who I’m sexually attracted to. Your church can discriminate against me, all it wants. But, my country doesn’t have that option. The government has to follow the Constitution not the laws of a being that you can not prove even exists.

            I’m not worried about the supposed “Supreme Judge of the Universe” because I don’t believe such a being exists.

            And you have absolutely ZERO proof that anyone will have to answer to any God, someday. All you have is a BELIEF that that will happen and a belief is NOT the same thing as proof.

            Knock yourself out, I don’t care if that’s what you believe, as long as you don’t expect me to believe it too.

        • William

          You know why people’s hearts were hardened through out the history of the Bible its because of their relentless unbelief hence the “vessels of mercy” and the “vessels of wrath”(Romans 9: verses 22 & 23).You know why people’s hearts were hardened through out the history of the Bible its because of their relentless unbelief hence the “vessels of mercy” and the “vessels of wrath”(Romans 9: verses 22 & 23)
          For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth
          “Pharaoh’s heart became harden” read (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart.
          God allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart but the action of hardening was Pharaoh’s own. Similarity can be appealed to in support of such an intrepretion read (2 Samuel 12:verse 11…16: verse 10…Psalm 105 verse25). Furthermore Paul spoke in Romans 1:24, 26, 28 about judicial abandonment to lust to the passions of dishonour and to a reprobate mind (read it).
          Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.
          And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites who witness it and many come to believe…that is the purpose.
          Romans 11 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
          7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

          “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
          eyes that would not see
          and ears that would not hear,
          down to this very day.”
          9 And David says,
          “Let their table become a snare and a trap,
          a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
          10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
          and bend their backs forever.”

          Take note of 1 Timothy 4:2 having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
          What do you think sir about 1 Timothy 4:2 about a person’s conscience being seared, you think that they become so callous that they don’t listen anymore? what’s God to do with them? They roam the earth with a seared conscience and a hardened heart until the day they die and then they’re judged and cast into eternal punishment.
          I know what you’re going to say: If God knew before they were born that they would seared their conscience and harden their hearts why let them be born anyway? He’s only going to cast them into eternal punishment.
          Take note of Isaiah 46:9–10 again, do you have the ability to understand it, He is God and what His Will is… it will be done.

          Remember the former things of old;
          for I am God, and there is no other;
          I am God, and there is none like me,
          declaring the end from the beginning
          and from ancient times things not yet done,
          saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
          and I will accomplish all my purpose,

          And God even warns us christians about a evil heart of unbelief: Take note of Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    • Noel

      Hi Taylor,
      I am not sure why people assume following Jesus has nothing to do with facts. I suppose people have heard Christians say “just have faith” one too many times, instead of admitting they don’t have the answers to every question (after all, who could?). I think my faith stems from both my experiences and facts. Following Jesus is like eating. Fully understanding it is impossible until you have experienced it for yourself. You can learn about food, smell it, touch it, but not until you actually put food inside your stomach do you understand eating.
      We live our lives based in things that are not absolutely proven true. Many times, science even has to retract what it once said, because new evidence surfaces. But we have faith in these theories because they match our experiences with life.
      Personally, I believe God created people he knew would be gay for the same reason he created everyone. Compared to God’s holiness, we all screw-up in many ways; we are ALL at fault. But God wants us to have the free will to choose or reject him. He created you, he created me, because he loves us. And he wants us to choose to love him, so he is giving us a chance.
      Also, if God is really in control of the big-picture, he can work through people who are not Christians to accomplish his plans. Because the Bible says we are all made in his image, we are all capable of reflecting God’s goodness, his kindness, patients, love… I believe everyone is here for a reason.
      PS–If you want a resource about logically proving the existence of a Creator, without bringing in religion, CS Lewis does it remarkably well in the beginning of “Mere Christianity.”

      • Taylor

        “Personally, I believe God created people he knew would be gay for the same reason he created everyone. ”

        Which really doesn’t answer the question. Why create something that is an abomination to you, and who you know will be condemned for all eternity to suffer in hell, when you don’t have to create it at all? It’s not like an all knowing god, doesn’t know who’s going to end up in hell, BEFORE they take their first breath.

        If you want to worship a god that would do such things, knock yourself out. But I prefer not to worship sociopaths.

        Your god knows how we are going to use this supposed “FREE WILL” before he ever allows for our creation. If he doesn’t then he is NOT all knowing. So, which is it…he he all knowing or is he not?

        LOL – C.S. Lewis is the platitude king. No thanks, I’ve read more C.S. Lewis that anyone should have to read.

        • William

          You know why people’s hearts were hardened through out the history of the Bible its because of their relentless unbelief hence the “vessels of mercy” and the “vessels of wrath”(Romans 9: verses 22 & 23).
          For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth
          “Pharaoh’s heart became harden” read (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart.
          God allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart but the action of hardening was Pharaoh’s own. Similarity can be appealed to in support of such an intrepretion read (2 Samuel 12:verse 11…16: verse 10…Psalm 105 verse25). Furthermore Paul spoke in Romans 1:24, 26, 28 about judicial abandonment to lust to the passions of dishonour and to a reprobate mind (read it).
          Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.
          And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites who witness it and many come to believe…that is the purpose.
          Romans 11 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
          7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

          “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
          eyes that would not see
          and ears that would not hear,
          down to this very day.”
          9 And David says,
          “Let their table become a snare and a trap,
          a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
          10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
          and bend their backs forever.”

          Take note of 1 Timothy 4:2 having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
          What do you think sir about 1 Timothy 4:2 about a person’s conscience being seared, you think that they become so callous that they don’t listen anymore? what’s God to do with them? They roam the earth with a seared conscience and a hardened heart until the day they die and then they’re judged and cast into eternal punishment.
          I know what you’re going to say: If God knew before they were born that they would seared their conscience and harden their hearts why let them be born anyway? He’s only going to cast them into eternal punishment.

          Take note of Isaiah 46:9–10 again, do you have the ability to understand it, He is God and what His Will is… it will be done.

          Remember the former things of old;
          for I am God, and there is no other;
          I am God, and there is none like me,
          declaring the end from the beginning
          and from ancient times things not yet done,
          saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
          and I will accomplish all my purpose,
          And God even warns us christians about a evil heart of unbelief: Take note of Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
          You sir cannot justify yourself in saying that God is a psychopath, a monster…..for he said ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10.

          Jeffrey Dahmer known as the “Milwaukee Cannibal” raped, murdered and dismembered 17 men but in prison he became a born again christian through a minister before he was kill by a inmate. Most people would be repulsed by what Jeffrey Dahmer did and show no mercy whatsoever. Jeffrey Dahmer while in prison wanted to see a minister for the horrific crimes that he committed and this minister prayed with him. Jeffrey Dahmer asked for forgiveness and through the grace of God he was saved.

          So would you compared God to Jeffery Dahmer, a man who was once a monster, a psychopath? A monster, a psychopath whom He had mercy on whom He saved.
          In your firmly held belief you cannot stand in judgment against God.
          I will say it again what He said in Isaiah 46:9–10: “My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose”.

          And since Christ ‘”he hath poured out his soul unto death” Isaiah 53:12…No one will be justified in God’s sight Who gave his Only Begotten Son unless they come to Him and repent of their sins and be saved by His transforming Grace.

    • Liveth

      “AKA “no John, it is YOU who are the zombie!!1!”‘

      “Live your life however you want, believe your unprovable beliefs, just
      don’t expect everyone to hop aboard your ‘little faith train’.”

      This is something I see 99% of the time, even with close friends who prefer same-sex relationships. They either quickly turn on you with intense dislike, get sarcastic or rude. It’s the same across continents I see.

      And no, I’m not not speaking from experience and from a bubble in my head. I’m speaking from experience, I’m only lucky to have gotten out when my conscience wasn’t dead to this wrong. So I know. I also turned defensive and argumentative when faced with the truth. Adam did, Eve, did…it’s human nature.

      What’s my point here? Let’s make our point without trying hard to belittle someone else’s, even if they’ve done that to yours. It’s called being mature, calm and put together. The world needs it more than anything else these days.

      “When you can actually logically explain why an ALL KNOWING GOD, knowingly creates people that he KNOWS will be gay, when he doesn’t have to create them at all, then maybe you’ll get somewhere in attempting to convince me the that “message” you want me to heed is actually worthwhile.”

      I think you should read the bible sometime, if anything, it makes for fun reading and getting a little perspective on why humans are the way they are. God didn’t make robots unfortunately, as much as he could, he wanted and still wants people who would love him for who he is and not what he gives.

      You wouldn’t want to voodoo (I’m from the African continent and it does happen, my grandpa was a first hand example, but that’s another story all together) someone into loving you I’m sure. It’s never the same thing when they love you for you and all the junk you carry.

      That’s more than anything one area where we were made in God’s image.

      Now, I figure that God knew Adam and Eve would fall into sin still, he kind of held out hoping they’d stick with him the whole 9 yards. Now that they didn’t stick with him and sinned, our very natures are sinful. It cannot be helped, it’s like impurity in a solid mineral like gold, it cannot be helped but needs going through the fire for a really long period of time to get rid of every impurity.

      And nobody said getting put through a furnace was fun.

      “When you can actually logically explain why an ALL KNOWING GOD,
      knowingly creates people that he KNOWS will be gay”

      For some people, it’s preferring same-sex relationships, for others, it’s being a serial womanizer aka fornicator, for others it’s stealing, gossiping…it’s all sin, none greater than the other. So it’s not about ‘creating people he knows will be, as you call it, gay’, it’s the same sinful nature manifesting in different ways.

      God exists outside of time, he created time itself; so the ‘creation’ of human beings through reproduction is part of what has been etched into the time warp he’s created (watch the Matrix for further elucidation). There are laws, example, you jump up, you’ll come down, you sow a seed, you get a yield, you do good, you get good. There are however anomalies, and this is where sometimes the spiritual, and maybe an advanced knowledge of the physical (e.g, knowledge on how to make dessert sand fertile for planting) comes to play. The knowledge is there within that time warp, you just have to find it.

      So God does not create someone he knows will be gay, your creation via reproduction is etched in time. He’s only hoping you’ll find knowledge of the spiritual and come to love him.

      “when he doesn’t have to create them at all, then maybe you’ll get somewhere in attempting to convince me the that “message” you want me to heed is actually worthwhile.”

      Matt can’t convince you, it’s not his job, he’ll fail. Only the God’s spirit can however, the only thing God can’t do is change a man’s mind. God will try, but he’s not an enemy who’ll beat you into submission (this is also a point to note for all those churches making same-sex couples miserable by cursing on them/all those governments throwing them in jail. You give more power to the Resistance when you try to wipe them out – blacks, Jews, slaves…plus it’s a sin).

      If Matt’s beliefs are total shambles and he finds out that there is in fact, no God when he dies, he really won’t have lost much, just his enjoyment of what he used to term freedom. But, if he decides that there isn’t and he dies and finds out there is, then, well…

      • Taylor

        If you do not like how I respond, that’s fine…but I’m not going to alter my responses to suit your delicate sensibilities.

        “I think you should read the bible sometime, if anything, it makes for fun reading and getting a little perspective on why humans are the way they are. God didn’t make robots unfortunately, as much as he could, he wanted and still wants people who would love him for who he is and not what he gives.”

        LOL…so typical. Anyone who disagrees with a Christian, just needs to read the bible. Well…SURPRISE! I spent the first 30 years of my life attending Sunday School and Church and Choir Practice and Vacation Bible School and Wednesday Night Youth Fellowship. I still have the bible that I was presented for 5 years perfect attendance at Sunday School. So, your pathetic claim that all I need to do is read the bible, is utter BS!

        As long as you claim that your god is all knowing, then you have to admit that your god knows, who is going to “love” him before he ever creates them. Which means that he knowingly creates people that he knows are going to end up in hell, because they either don’t believe in his existence, or because they are gay, or because, they just don’t LOVE him. It’s a bit counter productive to create people that you know aren’t going to love you, if love is what you want.

        “Now, I figure that God knew Adam and Eve would fall into sin still, he kind of held out hoping they’d stick with him the whole 9 yards. Now that they didn’t stick with him and sinned, our very natures are sinful. It cannot be helped, it’s like impurity in a solid mineral like gold, it cannot be helped but needs going through the fire for a really long period of time to get rid of every impurity.”

        More BS!! Either all knowing means all knowing or it doesn’t. You can’t say that he “kind of held out hoping they’d stick with him” If your god is all knowing, He knew if they would “stick with him” or not BEFORE he ever created them.

        The dogma of your ridiculous religion has made your god all knowing and all powerful. You don’t get to ignore that dogma, when it’s convenient for your argument.

        “For some people, it’s preferring same-sex relationships, for others, it’s being a serial womanizer aka fornicator, for others it’s stealing, gossiping…it’s all sin, none greater than the other. So it’s not about ‘creating people he knows will be, as you call it, gay’, it’s the same sinful nature manifesting in different ways.”

        More double talk…it doesn’t matter what the supposed sin is…the fact remains, your GOD knows each and every sin someone is going to commit before they even exist. And knowing that he goes ahead and creates them anyway, when he doesn’t have to create them at all. The question you can’t answer is WHY?? Why does a loving god create people that HE KNOWS are going to end up being tortured for all eternity. There is absolutely NOTHING loving about that. It’s sadistic!

        “(watch the Matrix for further elucidation)”

        LOL…the MATRIX is a work of fiction!

        “So God does not create someone he knows will be gay, your creation via reproduction is etched in time. He’s only hoping you’ll find knowledge of the spiritual and come to love him.”

        Then your god is NOT all knowing. Either ALL KNOWING means ALL KNOWING or it doesn’t. Since your god is also ALL POWERFUL, he should also have the POWER to know what everyone is going to do and be before he ever creates them.

        Is your god All Knowing and All Powerful or isn’t he?

        “Only the God’s spirit can however, the only thing God can’t do is change a man’s mind.”

        Then he’s not All Powerful!

        “If Matt’s beliefs are total shambles and he finds out that there is in fact, no God when he dies, he really won’t have lost much, just his enjoyment of what he used to term freedom. But, if he decides that there isn’t and he dies and finds out there is, then, well…”

        Using the threat of the unknown is hardly a threat, to someone who doesn’t buy into your whole…heaven or hell paradigm. Got anything else?

        • William

          Then answer this question….For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life John 3:16.
          You said “When you can actually logically explain why an ALL KNOWING GOD, knowingly creates people that he KNOWS will be gay, when he doesn’t have to create them at all, then maybe you’ll get somewhere in attempting to convince me that the “message” you want me to heed is actually worthwhile”
          You know once that was a compelling argument but it isn’t anymore, yea I remember when I first become a born again Christian and the devil was at the door invading my thoughts…..”look at all the guilt, fear, sacrifice and self-denial God is putting you through…blame Him”…..and then there’s Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and what God as a Father put him through…
          Isaiah 53:12 : “he hath poured out his soul unto death” ….for what?…the only logical answer according to the Bible “to save mankind from “the law of sin and death”(Roman 8 verse 2)……so what do I heed here?…….
          What is the soul’s worth? what is its value,? He considered its “worth” its “value” and that’s why “he hath poured out his soul unto death”. And since He considered its worth, its value how do we consider it?

          • Taylor

            This is the only response you will get from me this thread is over a year old and I’ve lost interest in it.

            An all knowing God knows who is going to believe in him before he creates anyone. Which means he also knows who isn’t.

            Who ever created the dogma of your ridiculous religion screwed up, when they decided to make him omniscient.

            If he’s omniscient (which all Christians claim that he is) then he knowingly creates people that he knows are going to end up in hell, before they take their first breath, when he doesn’t have to create them at all and no one would no the difference.

            I don’t care how many Bible verses you quote that fact will not be changed. And any being that creates people that it knows will end up being tortured is not loving. It’s a monster.

          • William

            And Jesus said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18.

            Isaiah 14:12-15
            “How you are fallen from heaven,
            O Lucifer, son of the morning!
            How you are cut down to the ground,
            You who weakened the nations!
            For you have said in your heart:
            ‘I will ascend into heaven,
            I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
            I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
            On the farthest sides of the north;
            I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
            I will be like the Most High.’
            Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
            To the lowest depths of the Pit.
            He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
            So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9
            Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
            Yes God is Omniscient…if you had counsel with God what would you say to Him…You might as well say: “Before You created man you created the angels and one Lucifer, the devil rebelled against you but you knew that he would and you knew you would cast him into the lake of fire which is stated in Revelation…”why create him at all…what is and what was the purpose? Why let him exist, he being so evil because in the end you’re only going to cast him into eternal punishment?

            What would God say: “the devil has sinned from the beginning and I brought My Only Begotten Son into this world for the purpose of destroying the works of the devil” (read 1 John 3:8 )
            He would also say: Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10
            And perhaps then you would say in your counsel: “then why create man knowing a lot of them will never be chosen and not a part of your elected…knowing they will rebelled against you and in the end knowing you will cast them into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels?
            What is the purpose?
            Paul said in Romans 9 verse 14: Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
            Pharaoh of Egypt was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. The Pharaoh of Egypt in Moses time hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go. “Pharaoh’s heart became harden” read (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart.

            Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.

            Pharaoh became the occasion to bring about the display of God’s great power in the plagues visited upon Eygpt and particularly in the destruction of Pharaoh’s hosts in the Red Sea and the passage of Israel on dry land.

            And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites who witness it and many come to believe…that is the purpose.

            God allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart but the action of hardening was Pharaoh’s own. Similarity can be appealed to in support of such an intrepretion read (2 Samuel 12:verse 11…16: verse 10…Psalm 105 verse25). Furthermore Paul spoke in Romans 1:24, 26, 28 about judicial abandonment to lust to the passions of dishonour and to a reprobate mind (read it).

            The whole purpose of the Israelites hearts being hardened is because of their relentless unbelief throughout the ages of the old testament (read Romans chapter 9) They believed in the works of the law in the old testament and could not attained to any righteousness of their own because righteousness can only come by faith in Jesus Christ so Paul turns from them and preaches the gospel to the Gentles to provoke his kinsmen to jealousy and so save some of them.

            Romans 9:31-32 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

            Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

            Romans 11:5, 6, 7, 8, 9…verse 5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Verse 6: But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. Verse 7: What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened. Verse 8: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

            Romans 9: 30, 31, 32, 33: Verse 30: What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; Verse 31: but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Verse 32: Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, Verse 33: as it is written,
            “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
            and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

            Romans 3: 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18……..
            Verse 9: For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
            Verse 10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            Verse 11:There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
            Verse 12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
            Verse 13: Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            Verse 14: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            Verse 15: Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            Verse 16: Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            Verse 17: And the way of peace have they not known:
            Verse 18: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

            You sir cannot justify yourself in saying that God is a psychopath, a monster…..for he said ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10.

            Romans 2: 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. And Romans 2: verse 15…judged by their conscience.

            Jeffrey Dahmer known as the “Milwaukee Cannibal” raped, murdered and dismembered 17 men but in prison he became a born again christian through a minister before he was kill by a inmate. Most people would be repulsed by what Jeffrey Dahmer did and show no mercy whatsoever. Jeffrey Dahmer while in prison wanted to see a minister for the horrific crimes that he committed and this minister prayed with him. Jeffrey Dahmer asked for forgiveness and through the grace of God he was saved.

            So would you compared God to Jeffery Dahmer, a man who was once a monster, a psychopath? A monster, a psychopath whom He had mercy on whom He saved.

            In your firmly held belief you cannot stand in judgment against God.

            I will say it again what He said in Isaiah 46:9–10: “My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose”.

            And since Christ ‘”he hath poured out his soul unto death” Isaiah 53:12…No one will be justified in God’s sight Who gave his Only Begotten Son unless they come to Him and repent of their sins and be saved by His transforming Grace.

            So sir you don’t have a compelling argument, not in God’s Counsel.

          • William

            And Jesus said to them,

            “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18.
            Isaiah 14:12-15
            “How you are fallen from heaven,
            O Lucifer, son of the morning!
            How you are cut down to the ground,
            You who weakened the nations!
            For you have said in your heart:
            ‘I will ascend into heaven,
            I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
            I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
            On the farthest sides of the north;
            I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
            I will be like the Most High.’
            Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
            To the lowest depths of the Pit.
            He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
            So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9
            Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

            Yes God is Omniscient…if you had counsel with God what would you say to Him…You might as well say: “Before You created man you created the angels and one Lucifer, the devil rebelled against you but you knew that he would and you knew you would cast him into the lake of fire which is stated in Revelation…”why create him at all…what is and what was the purpose? Why let him exist, he being so evil because in the end you’re only going to cast him into eternal punishment?
            What would God say: “the devil has sinned from the beginning and I brought My Only Begotten Son into this world for the purpose of destroying the works of the devil” (read 1 John 3:8 )
            He would also say: Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10
            And perhaps then you would say in your counsel: “then why create man knowing a lot of them will never be chosen and not a part of your elected…knowing they will rebelled against you and in the end knowing you will cast them into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels?
            What is the purpose?
            Paul said in Romans 9 verse 14: Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
            Pharaoh of Egypt was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. The Pharaoh of Egypt in Moses time hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go. “Pharaoh’s heart became harden” read (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart.

            Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.

            Pharaoh became the occasion to bring about the display of God’s great power in the plagues visited upon Eygpt and particularly in the destruction of Pharaoh’s hosts in the Red Sea and the passage of Israel on dry land.

            And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites who witness it and many come to believe…that is the purpose.

            God allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart but the action of hardening was Pharaoh’s own. Similarity can be appealed to in support of such an intrepretion read (2 Samuel 12:verse 11…16: verse 10…Psalm 105 verse25). Furthermore Paul spoke in Romans 1:24, 26, 28 about judicial abandonment to lust to the passions of dishonour and to a reprobate mind (read it).

            The whole purpose of the Israelites hearts being hardened is because of their relentless unbelief throughout the ages of the old testament (read Romans chapter 9) They believed in the works of the law in the old testament and could not attained to any righteousness of their own because righteousness can only come by faith in Jesus Christ so Paul turns from them and preaches the gospel to the Gentles to provoke his kinsmen to jealousy and so save some of them.

            Romans 9:31-32 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
            Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
            Romans 11:5, 6, 7, 8, 9…verse 5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Verse 6: But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. Verse 7: What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened. Verse 8: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.
            Romans 9: 30, 31, 32, 33: Verse 30: What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; Verse 31: but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Verse 32: Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, Verse 33: as it is written,

            “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
            and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

            Romans 3: 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18……..
            Verse 9: For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
            Verse 10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

            Verse 11:There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
            Verse 12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
            Verse 13: Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            Verse 14: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            Verse 15: Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            Verse 16: Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            Verse 17: And the way of peace have they not known:
            Verse 18: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

            You sir cannot justify yourself in saying that God is a psychopath, a monster…..for he said ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10.

            Romans 2: 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. And Romans 2: verse 15…judged by their conscience.

            Jeffrey Dahmer known as the “Milwaukee Cannibal” raped, murdered and dismembered 17 men but in prison he became a born again christian through a minister before he was kill by a inmate. Most people would be repulsed by what Jeffrey Dahmer did and show no mercy whatsoever. Jeffrey Dahmer while in prison wanted to see a minister for the horrific crimes that he committed and this minister prayed with him. Jeffrey Dahmer asked for forgiveness and through the grace of God he was saved.

            So would you compared God to Jeffery Dahmer, a man who was once a monster, a psychopath? A monster, a psychopath whom He had mercy on whom He saved.

            In your firmly held belief you cannot stand in judgment against God.

            I will say it again what He said in Isaiah 46:9–10: “My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose”.

            And since Christ ‘”he hath poured out his soul unto death” Isaiah 53:12…No one will be justified in God’s sight Who gave his Only Begotten Son unless they come to Him and repent of their sins and be saved by His transforming Grace.

            So you don’t have a compelling argument, not in God’s Counsel.

          • Taylor

            “Jeffrey Dahmer asked for forgiveness and through the grace of God he was saved.”

            That is an assertion, that you can not possibly prove. Along with all the other BS you’ve spouted.

            You Christians are great when it comes to making assertions about your supposed god…but you absolutely suck at offering tangible, IRREFUTABLE proof that any of those assertions are true!

          • William

            Why you afraid of something?

          • Taylor

            No..I’m not afraid of unprovable assertions, which is all you seem to have. Why would I be?

          • William

            Every brother of mine you tried to convinced that God is a monster, a psychopath, you will not cause them to struggle with their faith I will post this compelling message on every Christian site. I have prayed dearly against your accusations and God has guided me to the scriptures to discredit you….

          • William

            I am now finished with you…You are discredited by God’s Counsel in Scripture…

          • Taylor

            You’ve discredited nothing. You’ve made up a dialogue, that still doesn’t answer why an all knowing god who supposedly hates sin, knowingly and purposefully created the being that he knew would bring sin into the world, when he didn’t have to create it at all and no one would know the difference.

          • William

            He would also say: Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10

            What would God say: “the devil has sinned from the beginning and I brought My Only Begotten Son into this world for the purpose of destroying the works of the devil” (read 1 John 3:8 )

          • Taylor

            How nice that you think you can speak for what appears to be your mythical god.

            What other delusions do you have??

            If he hadn’t knowingly created Satan in the first place there would have been no need to send anyone as a human sacrifice.

          • William

            St Matthew Chapter 26 Vesres 36, 37, 38, 39
            36 ¶ Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
            37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
            38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
            39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

            If anyone had any right to complain as you do it would be Jesus Christ but look what He said in verse 39: , O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

          • Taylor

            Gosh, it seems like it was just a few hours ago you said this.

            “I’m finished sir……..you’re in God’s Hands now…He’s the Only One that can show you.”

            Oh, wait! It was just a few hours ago.

            Did you change your mind? Or can you not resist the urge to pontificate??

            If Jesus said that…then it appears he was talking to himself, since He supposedly was God incarnate on earth.

            “Excuse me Peter, I’m going to go over there and talk to myself. You say here I won’t be long.”

            That’s a bit wacky.

          • William

            You said: If he hadn’t knowingly created Satan in the first place there would have been no need to send anyone as a human sacrifice.
            But Jesus was the human sacrifice, don’t you think that everything you complain about he’d would have said the same thing…But He didn’t…all He said… “let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt”
            You don’t realize that by your question I have found the right answer in what Jesus said in verse 39.
            Its all God’s Will to create this Universe, Jesus Christ, Lucifer and Man and now I will say “Goodbye indeed.

          • Taylor

            And once again, if Jesus/God had not created Satan in the first place there would have been no need for the dog and pony show of crucifixion and resurrection. I’m supposed to feel sorry for a God that knowingly created the being that he needed, as justification to sacrifice himself? When he didn’t have to create that being at all and no sacrifice would be necessary?

            It’s laughable on the face of it.

            Don’t want people to sin, don’t knowingly create the being that will be responsible for bringing sin into the world. Problem solved.

            “and now I will say “Goodbye indeed.”

            From your lips to your mythical God’s ears! HAHAHA! 🙂 I won’t hold my breath.

          • William

            You know sir I got to say it, I can’t say goodbye as yet.
            You think you found fault with God, man as you breathe the air He put in your lungs He certainly finds fault with you….You laugh at Him…take note of Galatians 6:7: God is not mocked.
            Take note of Romans 9:20:
            “But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?”
            Take note of Isaiah 40:13: Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counselor has taught him?
            You think you have the authority to direct the Spirit of God, can you be his advisor to instruct Him or can you be his counselor? Can you teach Him knowledge? God is looking at you now and all your knowledge is nonsense to Him!
            Take note of Isaiah 46:9–10 again, do you have the ability to understand it, He is God and what His Will is it will be done and your knowledge is nonsense to Him.
            He would also say: Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose,

          • Taylor

            “You know sir I got to say it, I can’t say goodbye as yet.”

            Of course you can’t. Because your self-righteous ego won’t allow you to. It’s fairly clear, that you can’t cope with the fact that I’m not buying what you’re selling.

            “You think you found fault with God, man as you breathe the air He put in your lungs He certainly finds fault with you….You laugh at Him…take note of Galatians 6:7: God is not mocked.”

            God is not mocked….because god does not exist. And you’ve given me absolutely no tangible irrefutable evidence that shows that he does.

            “”But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?”

            I am the one that a supposed all knowing God, should have known was going to talk back to him before he even created me. If He didn’t want to be talked back to, he had several options to choose from. 1) he could have not created me at all or 2) he could have created me without the ability to use reason and logic, or 3) he could have created me like you, who is willing to buy into anything an ancient book says!

            If the potter knows that the pot he is making is going to do things the potter doesn’t like, it’s not the pots fault it was made that way, it’s the potters! The pot didn’t make itself with those attributes, the potter, knowingly did.

            “You think you have the authority to direct the Spirit of God, can you be his advisor to instruct Him or can you be his counselor? Can you teach Him knowledge? God is looking at you now and all your knowledge is nonsense to Him!”

            In order for me to think any of those things I’d have to believe that your God exists…I’m not sure why it’s so difficult for you to grasp, that I don’t believe God exists…therefore I also don’t believe all the ridiculous things you spout…about this non-existent God.

            “He would also say: Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose”

            That’s nice…now….remember what I say to you and try to let it sink in.

            I think everything you say is BS! 🙂 Clear enough??

          • William

            It a wonder that you exist……………

          • Taylor

            Actually not all that much of a wonder, considering my existence was predicated on exactly the same thing that every other human’s is.

            An egg being fertilized by a sperm, and being carried to term. Not a wonder…just a coincidence! 🙂

          • William

            Sir I got to say I’m sorry that I insulted you when I said “It a wonder that you exist”, you have every right to exist just as anyone.
            All I can say I was once like you, I didn’t believe that God existed…I thought that He was just a delusion in people’s minds, but I went through a dramatic experience in my teenage years. Its a wonder that I got through my teenage years and I’m not dead or on a psychiatric ward. By the time I was 23yrs. old my mind was totally messed up, my memory was shot, I was totally addicted to many kinds of drugs, LSD, MDA, Mescaline, Hash, Hash oil, Glue Sniffing and other drugs I can’t remember. After a while I couldn’t face my friends anymore or people in general because I felt that when I had a conversation with them I was saying things stupid even when I wasn’t on the drugs. I had no confidence in myself and I felt that people were smarter and more superior than me so I kept to myself and did all the drugs alone living in a fantasy world listening to rock and roll day in and day out. I went into a state of depression that was very bad and I did more and more drugs to try to be happy but it didn’t work anymore. It was Christmas Day 1978 and I was alone in the house, everyone was out with their friends even my mother was out seeing a friend of hers. I had no drugs that day and I was overcome with grief and I cried and I cried and I cried, my mind was so messed up and my heart was breaking inside of me that I looked up at the ceiling and said “God if you are real I need help bad I’m sorry for the way I lived my life”. I thought I was grasping at straws and I felt there wasn’t any hope but as I was crying I felt a powerful feeling surged through me, it seemed it started in the pit of my stomach rose to my chest and into my mind and this amazing feeling of peace overflowed my mind like a river. I looked up at the skies and said “God you’re real aren’t you?
            I felt so full of peace it seemed it was just too much but I felt so happy. I left the house and went out into the streets and all kinds of thoughts went through my mind. Thoughts like “Does anyone know about this that God is real” and in those moments I thought I was the only one that knew.
            It was the most dramatic experience I ever had in my life, all the deep depression and the craving for drugs disappeared from my mind, it was like wiping white chalk off a blackboard, it longer existed in my mind. Sir if you were to meet me you wouldn’t see that “dramatic change” and of course you didn’t know me back then, the only witnesses were the members of my family. They didn’t quite understand it but my mother did. All they ever seen in me was the deep depression, they seen me as a drug addict and some of the members of my family seen me as a sorry excuse for a human being. One of my brothers, the hard case of the family used to bullied me, he’d push me around and tossed up my hair and say “looked at poor Billy”. But after that dramatic change he was nervous of me. he didn’t quite understand the “change” in me. He didn’t understand why I was so confident and that when I walked I held my head high. He didn’t understand when I looked at him, my eyes were steady and he was the one that cast his eyes to the floor. It would seemed that he was seeing something in me that made him afraid but I wasn’t trying to do that to him. I spoke to my mother about God and the dramatic change in me and she said “yes Billy God is changing you”. I said to my mother “this peace is beyond anything I ever experience, maybe someone was praying for me” and she said “I was praying for you Billy”. My mother blew my mind and my eyes filled up with tears, that’s a mother’s love for you. So sir I can’t deny this dramatic change in my life, it was a waterfall of Grace and Peace. I can’t deny the existence of God now as a matter of fact I welcome it. Sir what my mother did for me I will do for you…pray for you. I recommend a book for you if you would read it…Run Baby Run by Nicky Cruz. I know you’re going to deny what I experience but it doesn’t matter, for what I experience in my heart and my spirit is all the evidence I need. I won’t answer you anymore if you deny what I experience or you deny the existence of God. I’m just sorry I insulted you.

          • Taylor

            Don’t flatter yourself by thinking you could insult me. You’re not that special.

            I do have to say it appears that you have an extraordinary ego to think I would care about your history, by offering it to me unsolicited.

            Here’s a clue…. I DO NOT CARE!!

          • William

            You said sir: If the potter knows that the pot he is making is going to do things the potter doesn’t like, it’s not the pots fault it was made that way, it’s the potters! The pot didn’t make itself with those attributes, the potter, knowingly did.
            You know why people’s hearts were hardened through out the history of the Bible its because of their relentless unbelief hence the “vessels of mercy” and the “vessels of wrath”(Romans 9: verses 22 & 23).
            For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth
            “Pharaoh’s heart became harden” read (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart.
            God allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart but the action of hardening was Pharaoh’s own. Similarity can be appealed to in support of such an intrepretion read (2 Samuel 12:verse 11…16: verse 10…Psalm 105 verse25). Furthermore Paul spoke in Romans 1:24, 26, 28 about judicial abandonment to lust to the passions of dishonour and to a reprobate mind (read it).
            Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.
            And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites who witness it and many come to believe…that is the purpose.
            Romans 11 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
            7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

            “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
            eyes that would not see
            and ears that would not hear,
            down to this very day.”
            9 And David says,

            “Let their table become a snare and a trap,
            a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
            10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
            and bend their backs forever.”

            Take note of 1 Timothy 4:2 having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
            What do you think sir about 1 Timothy 4:2 about a person’s conscience being seared, you think that they become so callous that they don’t listen anymore? what’s God to do with them? They roam the earth with a seared conscience and a hardened heart until the day they die and then they’re judged and cast into eternal punishment.
            I know what you’re going to say: If God knew before they were born that they would seared their conscience and harden their hearts why let them be born anyway? He’s only going to cast them into eternal punishment.

            Take note of Isaiah 46:9–10 again, do you have the ability to understand it, He is God and what His Will is… it will be done.
            Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose,

            And God even warns us christians about a evil heart of unbelief: Take note of Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

            You sir cannot justify yourself in saying that God is a psychopath, a monster…..for he said ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10.

            Jeffrey Dahmer known as the “Milwaukee Cannibal” raped, murdered and dismembered 17 men but in prison he became a born again christian through a minister before he was kill by a inmate. Most people would be repulsed by what Jeffrey Dahmer did and show no mercy whatsoever. Jeffrey Dahmer while in prison wanted to see a minister for the horrific crimes that he committed and this minister prayed with him. Jeffrey Dahmer asked for forgiveness and through the grace of God he was saved.

            So would you compared God to Jeffery Dahmer, a man who was once a monster, a psychopath? A monster, a psychopath whom He had mercy on whom He saved.

            I will say it again what He said in Isaiah 46:9–10: “My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose”.

          • Taylor

            All of that blather doesn’t change the fact that an ALL KNOWING GOD should know whose heart is going to be hardened BEFORE He ever creates them. Yet he goes ahead and creates them anyway, when He does not have to create them at all and absolutely no one would know the difference.

            Your ridiculous god knowingly creates people that He knows He’s going to be mad at…and who HE KNOWS are going to end up in HELL before they take their first breath. It’s beyond stupid to do so.

            It’s the equivalent of me, who knows that I hate live and onions, making liver and onions for dinner, then getting mad because the liver and onions taste exactly like I knew they would…so I end up throwing them in the garbage, which I also knew I would do, instead of making something for dinner, I know that I would like.

            Non-sensical, is the only way to describe that behavior.

            As far as your assertion about Jeffrey Dahmer having been shown mercy and being saved. You have absolutely NO WAY of proving that to be true!

            Save your ridiculous assertions about what a God you can’t prove exists did for someone who asked for forgiveness, with those who share your ridiculous beliefs. I do not happen to be one of them.

            If you’re going to make an assertion that something happened you better be able to prove it. Simply believing it happened is not enough for me.

            Are you going to say “good-bye indeed” one more time? Or have you given up on making that pledge that you know your ego won’t allow you to keep??

            PS,,,you do realize that quoting scripture to someone who doesn’t believe that the Bible is anything more than a compilation of Iron Age fiction, isn’t going to change their mind….don’t you?

          • William

            You’re saying such a “god” does not exist because “he” doesn’t use logic in his creation and such a “mythical god” is nonsense and who would believe in such nonsense.
            He knows that their hearts are going to be harden before “he” creates them so why create them then be angry at them and cast them into eternal punishment, so such a “mythical god” does not exist because “he” doesn’t use logic in “his” creation.
            A lot of the Bible seems random, the knowledge and events doesn’t follow a definite plan or pattern and its difficult to put it in perspective. I only know one person who could do that , put the Bible in perspective and I needed perspective because I too struggle with it. The person I’m talking about is John Murray and his Commentary on The Epistle To The Romans. I can’t put the whole text of his commentary here on this site, you read the Bible for thirty years, it seems you had patience to do that, why not read his commentary and see if the Bible is put in perspective for you.
            I was with a friend earlier tonight and she talked about this woman whom she knows and well this woman had a decent upbringing. She followed the pattern of life as most people do and she became a parent to several children.
            All of her children learn from her and had a decent upbringing except for one. She learned the principles of right and wrong behavior from her mother but she choose the opposite. She choose to rebel, to do drugs and defy the law and her mother feels like disowning her.
            Well the God that I know can relate to her.

          • Taylor

            No…I’m saying your god doesn’t exist, because you can not present any tangible irrefutable proof that He does! And without that proof I have absolutely no reason to believe that He does.

            Why in the world would I read a commentary on Romans? Why would I care about what someone else thinks about something that Paul wrote? Why would I read something that is NOT going to offer tangible irrefutable proof that your god exists?

            I’m not interested in any more BS. If you’ve got irrefutable proof then offer it up. If not..there’s nothing more to discuss!

            Your anecdotes about who you’ve talked to and what they said bore me. What will it take to make you understand that I do not care about you’re life experiences? They mean nothing to me.

            The MOTHER, didn’t know that her daughter was going to rebel, BEFORE, she had her….Your all knowing God, on the other hand DOES! If you can’t see the difference, then you’re beyond hope.

            God hates sin. God created the being that HE KNEW would be responsible for bringing sin in to the world. Satan didn’t create himself knowing he would do this….you’re ridiculous God did. Which makes your God just as responsible for bring sin into the world as Satan.

            A bomb maker who makes a bomb that He KNOWS will be used to kill people…is just as complicit in the murders as the person who detonates the bomb. Your God is the bomb maker!

          • William

            So God is responsible for creating a person with “free will” knowing that person with “free will” will choose to rebel against Him, will choose to do evil, will choose to sin and then casting that person with “free will” into eternal punishment.
            So imagine for a moment this person with “free will” shaking his fist at heaven saying: “why did you make me, I choose to live this life the way I want to and if that means sinning against you then you’re responsible for you’re the One who made me!
            This “vessel” this body and the mind and heart it contains I don’t own it, it all goes back to Him. I can’t claim it as my own.
            I only know since that dramatic experience in my youth and the experience of His life changing grace that my body now is a “temple of the Holy Spirit”. Am I responsible now since I don’t own it?
            Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16
            Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:19
            “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Ezekiel 36:27
            Now can that person with “free will” have any “rightful claim” to that body?
            But some how I’m thinking you will say: “Well God made that person with “free will” responsible for it. So God is responsible for everything?
            So it all goes back to Isaiah 46:9–10 yet again.
            Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose,

          • Taylor

            A person can not have free will, if your god is omniscient. Free will and Omniscience create a paradox and a circular argument. You can have one, or the other, but not both.

            If your god is omniscient, I have to do what he knew I would do, before I even existed. If I don’t he is not Omniscient. If I can’t do anything your god didn’t know I was going to do, I don’t have Free Will. I’m merely being controlled by the invisible strings of his perfect foreknowledge.

            Your arguments SUCK!!

            Here’s what I’m going to do for you. Since you seem unable to keep your word and say goodbye and mean it. The next time you respond, I’m going to block you!! That way you will no longer be tempted to respond. Then your false goodbyes will actually mean something.

            So, gather your thoughts and respond to me in a meaningful way, because it will be your last opportunity to do so.

            Trust me, I will keep my word.

          • William

            So what are these “invisible strings of his perfect foreknowledge”?

          • William

            If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. John 7:17
            Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord, Proverbs 1:29
            Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment Romans 13:2
            Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.James 4:7

            Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. James 1:13-16
            And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.2 Timothy 2:26
            Take note of 1 Timothy 4:2 having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
            Goodbye……………….

          • William

            God’s Counsel is not subject to human logic.

            God looks out from eternity, he knows the evil that men will do before they’re even born. Are they controlled by the “invisible strings” of his foreknowledge?

            Romans 9:13 : Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

            Jacob valued the birthright even though he took it by deceit and Esau despised it ( it wasn’t of any importance to him) Genesis 25:34: thus Esau despised his birthright.

            “For ye know how that afterward, when he(Esau) would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.” Hebrews 12:17

            In Acts 5:31 it is said: Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”God hath exalted Christ with his right hand, to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel”

            It denotes that he has “dominion” and “power,” especially the power to give repentance and the pardon of sins.

            Esau wasn’t shown any mercy, he “found no place of repentance,”

            Imagine if you will if Esau lived in the time of the Apostle Paul and he was among the Jews listening to the words of Paul from the Letter to the Romans 3: 4, 5, 6, 7.

            4 let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

            5But if our unrighteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)

            6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

            7But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.

            Imagine if you will what Esau would say in his defence, he would think about paul’s words in a logical way( as paul said “I speak after the manner of men” meaning human reasoning)

            Esau: “if the unrighteousness of man serves to display more clearly the righteousness of God, then God would be unrighteous in executing his wrath upon the ungodly.

            Esau: Then logic would dictate that God cannot justly inflict punishment, so why is it I am still judged as a sinner?

            Imagine what Paul would say.

            “God is not subjected to your logic, you speak after the manner of men, do you have the authority to sit in judgment against God? God is justified when He speaks, he is clear when he judges.

            “Did you not hear the words of King David, he said ” (Psalm 51: 4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

            “David is saying “that sin, since it is against God, vindicates and establishes His Justice”.

            “God must be true and every man be a liar”

            Imagine then what Esau would finally say:

            “If the truth of God through my lie abounds onto His Glory, then your gospel gives me license to sin, you’re saying let us do evil that good may come.

            Imagine Paul’s final words: “your accusation of the gospel we preached, that it gives license to sin is evil, you try to ruin the reputation of the gospel, your condemation is Just.

            As the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3: 7 “But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, (then apparently that would mean His Glory is made more conspicuous by man’s unbelief and sin)

            Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

            Romans 9: 6, 7, 8 For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed

            Romans 9: 6, 7, 8 has reference to Isaiah 64:7-9 and Isaiah 64:7-9 supplies the context of Romans 9: 6, 7, 8.

            Isaiah 64:7-9 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

            But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

            Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

            And hast consumed us, because of our iniquities(Isaiah 64: 7) (meaning, He hast delivered us into the power of our iniquities.)

            Romans 1:28 God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting.

            God said in Genesis 6:3 ” My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”

            I cannot take any credit for these comments, for most of these comments are from The Epistle To The Romans by John Murray, for God help me to arranged it in sequence to justify what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3: : 4, 5, 6, 7.

            The idea of Esau speaking in his own unjustified defence using human logic comes from Paul (I speak after the manner of men: Romans 3: 5). Man cannot justify himself, he can’t sit in judgment against God and subject His counsel to human logic.

            Satan appealed to my human sense of logic, he accused God of being unjustified in judging the sinner, he invaded my thoughts and said “logic dictates that God is unjust in judging Esau”

            Placing Esau on the scene of history listening to the letters of Paul to the Romans 3: : 4, 5, 6, 7 is God’s design and He help me to see that His Counsel is not subject to human logic.

            God’s Counsel and Authority is not subject to human logic, what does that mean?

            Neither is it affected by, determine by, dependent on, or accountable to human logic.

            “remember the former things of old;

            for I am God, and there is no other;

            I am God, and there is none like me,

            declaring the end from the beginning

            and from ancient times things not yet done,

            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,

            and I will accomplish all my purpose”(Isaiah 46:9- 10) English Standard Version

            There is a purpose why God is willing to show His wrath, make His power known and endure with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction(Romans 9:22) and that He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy(Romans 9:23)

            John Murray said if we insert the term “forebearance” we must say it was exercised in this longsuffering in order that His great power might be displayed. Embraced in this purpose are vessels of wrath and therefore viewed as deserving of wrath, the much longsuffering towards them is forebearing. In His forebearance God endures with much longsuffering “vessels of wrath” and in the infliction of His wrath he makes His power known.

            What God did in the case of Pharaoh(Romans 9: verse 17 illustrates what is more broadly applied to vessels of wrath in Romans 9: verse 22.

            Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.

            Pharaoh became the occasion to bring about the display of God’s great power in the plagues visited upon Eygpt and particularly in the destruction of Pharaoh’s hosts in the Red Sea and the passage of Israel on dry land.

            And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites.

            In Romans 9: verses 22, 23 the analogy of verse 21 is being applied and the vessels of wrath correspond to the potter’s vessel unto dishonour.

            In the case of Esau and his seed, the nation of Edom(the vessels of wrath) how did God make His power known and in the case of Jacob and his seed, the nation of Israel(vessels of mercy) how did He make the riches of His glory known?

            Looking at Malachi 1: verses 2,3,4,5, we read what the Lord had spoken to the nation of Israel.

            2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. 5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel.

            The Lord said to Israel that He loved them and Israel said “how has thou loved us? And the Lord said “was not Esau Jacob’s brother and yet I loved Jacob(and his seed) and I hated Esau(and his seed).

             

            We have to take note here that God loved Jacob(and his seed,they are the elected,the vessels of mercy) and hated Esau (and his seed,the vessels of wrath)

            And being the Elected was evidence of God’s love.

            Did the nation of Israel not know the assurance of being His Election? God did say it “Jacob I loved”

            When the people of Israel compared themselves to their neighbors the Edomitest(the descendants of Esau), they saw that God chose to preserve Israel and punished the Edomites. God chosed the Israelites(the descendants of Jacob) to be the elected in His kingdom, He gave them the Scriptures, the Temple, the Priests, the Covenants and the assurance of the promised Messiah. His love for them was and is eternal even though they failed Him again and again. He cared for them whenever they were in trouble, they were protected down through the ages and the Edomites were not. Their expectations were being fulfilled, Edom’s were not. He also in the end restored Israel to her land and left the mountains of Edom a wasteland.

            The Edomites were enemies of the Israelites, their relentless hatred for them(the Israelites) persisted throughout the ages.

            thou(Edom) hast had a perpetual enmity, and hast given over the children of Israel to the power of the sword in the time of their calamity(Ezekiel 35:5)

            Edom…did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever.(Amos 1:11)

            Because you rejoiced when the inheritance of Israel became desolate, that is how I will treat you. You will be desolate, Mount Seir, you and all of Edom. Then they will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:15)

            The Edomites shall be looked upon by all as abandoned to utter ruin. All that see them shall call them “the border of wickness”, a sinful nation.

            The Lord said to Israel: Your eyes shall see this(see the terrible judgments on Edom) and you shall say “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel” (Malachi 1: 5)

            In the case of Esau and his seed, the nation of Edom(the vessels of wrath) God made His power known and in the case of Jacob and his seed, the nation of Israel(vessels of mercy) He made the riches of His glory known.

            In His forebearance He endured with much longsuffering Edom’s enmity towards Israel and in the infliction of His wrath upon the nation of Edom He makes His power known.

            The Lord said to Israel:

            Your eyes shall see this(see the terrible judgments on Edom) and you shall say “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel” (Malachi 1: 5)

            In conclusion there’s no such thing as the “invisible strings” of His foreknowledge as the devil would “suggest” for King David said in (Psalm 51: 4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

            David is saying “that sin, since it is against God, vindicates and establishes His Justice”.

            Romans 3: 10

            as it is written,

            There is none righteous, no, not one;

            11 There is none that understandeth,

            There is none that seeketh after God;

            12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;

            There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.

            Psalm 14:1-3

            The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

            They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;

            There is no one who does good.

            The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men

            To see if there are any who understand,

            Who seek after God.

            They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;

            There is no one who does good, not even one.

            (Most of the text is taken from the American Standard Version 1901)

          • Taylor

            I don’t know what about your supposed message you think is “compelling” unless your goal was to compel me to laugh!

          • William

            You’re not stupid sir read the message……

          • Taylor

            I read the message. There’s nothing in it that compels me to do anything but laugh!

          • William

            You don’t have the capacity to understand sir:
            He would also say: Remember the former things of old;
            for I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is none like me,
            declaring the end from the beginning
            and from ancient times things not yet done,
            saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
            and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:9–10

          • Taylor

            HAHAHA!! I understand perfectly, that you have no tangible proof for the existence of your god, you just have a iron age book, whose authors claim they were inspired by a god that they also could not offer tangible proof of it’s existence.

            Which you cling to as if, quoting from it makes everything it says true!

            Yes, I understand that all to well. Save your quotes for the gullible, and for those who do not require proof. I don’t happen to be one of them.

          • William

            Look it up sir about what happened to Jeffrey Dahmer in prison……

          • Taylor

            I know about the supposed jailhouse conversion. What you assert but can not prove, is that the grace of any God, saved him from anything!

          • William

            The Only One that can prove that is God Himself, He will show you with tangible proof and then you can’t deny it…like He showed the Pharaoh in Egypt…laugh for now…but a time will come when you least expect it.

          • Taylor

            If I’m shown tangible IRREFUTABLE proof I couldn’t deny it! The very definition of IRREFUTABLE, is that it is undeniable. When you come up with some let me know.

            Until then you’ve got nothing…and insisting my “time will come” when your god will show me his proof , is yet another UNPROVABLE assertion.

          • William

            The Spirit of God…we cannot “see it”…”we cannot touch it”…the spirit of man…”we cannot see it”…”we cannot touch it” and every man has a spirit…a soul…if we’re just earthbound and in the flesh we don’t consider “our spirit” …its “our spirit” that joins onto God’s Spirit…we praise God in our spirit…we pray to God in our spirit…and the only way we experience God is in our spirit…for God is Spirit.
            But to you sir He’s going to show tangible proof when you least expect it, He has done it before to others through out history.

          • Taylor

            “The Spirit of God…we cannot “see it”…”we cannot touch it”…the spirit of man…”we cannot see it”…”we cannot touch it” and every man has a spirit…a soul…if we’re just earthbound and in the flesh we don’t consider “our spirit” …its “our spirit” that joins onto God’s Spirit…we praise God in our spirit…we pray to God in our spirit…and the only way we experience God is in our spirit…for God is Spirit. ”

            Another unprovable assertion. Is that all you have???

            “But to you sir He’s going to show tangible proof when you least expect, He has done before to others through out history.”

            And yet another! You just can’t stop yourself from making claims you can not prove, can you?

          • William

            I’m finished sir……..you’re in God’s Hands now…He’s the Only One that can show you.

          • Taylor

            Are far as I’m concerned you were finished before you ever started, when all you have to offer is unprovable assertions.

            Like this one: “you’re in God’s Hands now…”

          • William

            Bye…Bye…Sir.

          • Taylor

            Don’t let the door hit ya…where the mythical being split ya!

          • Hi Taylor! I sense a lot of anger in your posts. I understand, as I too was angry at Him. I spent twenty years apart from other Christians because of one incident (a guest speaker at a church I was attending said all gays go to hell). On September 24, 2012 I had a massive stroke that I should have not survived. I won’t bore you with scripture because you will dismiss it anyway. But I will tell you what God did for me, and the whole reason why I went into the gay lifestyle.

            To start with, I had basic SSA (same sex attraction). But then on September 24, 1984 (same date as my stroke, 28 years before) my best friend killed himself. I found out in school while doing an assignment that involved the newspapers. I did not grieve for him, because I thought that doing so would make me gay, and that was a big no-no in west Texas. My mother did not get me the counseling I needed concerning death because she was stoned at the time. When I went to visit my father and his wife the next summer, she told me he was in hell for killing himself. I went into a deep depression and became suicidal. The message from that guest speaker sent me over the edge and I plunged headfirst into the gay lifestyle, where I saw much death and substance abuse. I was sexually assaulted, offered money for sex, basically all the worst parts you could imagine of that life.

            When the stroke happened, my memory was totally erased, including the fact that I was gay. I started recovering parts of my memory, one of which was of my best friend. This happened in December of 2015. I was having severe flashbacks about him. Then something happened on February 3, 2016. I had another flashback about him, one of the worst yet. On a whim, I Googled his name, not really expecting anything. Instead I found a picture of his grave and where it was located: just three miles from where I work. It was then, for the first time, that I heard the voice of the Holy Spirit telling me to go. I finally went of February 6. I easily found the grave (I had never went as a youth because I was too upset). I wept over the grave for about an hour. I was about to leave when the Holy Spirit spoke to me again, and said that he had a brother and his name.

            I thought I was insane. How could I have known this? I finally Googled the name given to me. The only return I got back was the name of a pastor in Houston. I did not think that could be right. I left a cryptic message on the church website that only my friend’s brother could recognize. An hour later I got a call on my phone. It was indeed that pastor and he was my friend’s brother. He forgave me for not going to the funeral, though he had no idea of who I was. He also gave me a bit of scripture from the book of Matthew, 22:32 “…God is not god of the dead, but of the living.”

            This one scripture began undoing all the damage done to me by my stepmother. I went to his grave again on the anniversary of his death in 2016. I brought two roses, one for me and one for him. When I got there, there was a single white silk lily on the grave. The Holy Spirit said it was for me. I laid the roses on the grave and took the lily home. I placed it on my dining table and went to bed. The next day it was gone. When I asked God about this, the Holy Spirit told me that my friend was gone like the lily. For the first time I began to grieve. I am still grieving, but I am getting better. The whole reason I went into the gay life was that I loved him and was missing him. I forgave my stepmother in February of this year (2017), and I feel better about myself.

            God loves you! There is no one beyond redemption.

            I was full of anger. God understood and took it all away with the stroke.

            He began to heal my broken soul.

            God will heal yours too, if you let Him.

            I am going to quote one scripture: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9
            It won’t be easy. In fact it is a bitch. But it is well worth it, to have peace in your life.
            God bless!

          • Taylor

            “Hi Taylor! I sense a lot of anger in your posts. ”

            Gosh…I’ve never heard that line before. You might want to get a tune up on your sensor, because you couldn’t be more wrong. I’m not angry with people who try to insist that everyone must live by their religious beliefs…I just won’t sit silently by without telling them exactly why I won’t buy into those beliefs. Do not mistake a different opinion for anger. And do not mistake someone who voices those opinions as someone who is angry. If you mistake it for anger…that’s your problem not mine! 🙂

            Fascinating story…you might contact Kirk Cameron with it. Maybe he’ll make it into a movie that no one will go see.

            Why would I confess with my mouth that Jesus is lord…when I don’t believe God exists, or in the divinity of a person named Jesus, that lived 2000 years ago?

          • Well okay then.

    • Noel

      But your question is a good one. Christians also struggle with the answer to it.

      • William

        God’s Counsel is not subject to human logic.

        God looks out from eternity, he knows the evil that men will do before they’re even born. Are they controlled by the “invisible strings” of his foreknowledge?

        Romans 9:13 : Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

        Jacob valued the birthright even though he took it by deceit and Esau despised it ( it wasn’t of any importance to him) Genesis 25:34: thus Esau despised his birthright.

        “For ye know how that afterward, when he(Esau) would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.” Hebrews 12:17

        In Acts 5:31 it is said: Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”God hath exalted Christ with his right hand, to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel”

        It denotes that he has “dominion” and “power,” especially the power to give repentance and the pardon of sins.

        Esau wasn’t shown any mercy, he “found no place of repentance,”

        Imagine if you will if Esau lived in the time of the Apostle Paul and he was among the Jews listening to the words of Paul from the Letter to the Romans 3: 4, 5, 6, 7.

        4 let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

        5But if our unrighteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)

        6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

        7But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.

        Imagine if you will what Esau would say in his defence, he would think about paul’s words in a logical way( as paul said “I speak after the manner of men” meaning human reasoning)

        Esau: “if the unrighteousness of man serves to display more clearly the righteousness of God, then God would be unrighteous in executing his wrath upon the ungodly.

        Esau: Then logic would dictate that God cannot justly inflict punishment, so why is it I am still judged as a sinner?

        Imagine what Paul would say.

        “God is not subjected to your logic, you speak after the manner of men, do you have the authority to sit in judgment against God? God is justified when He speaks, he is clear when he judges.

        “Did you not hear the words of King David, he said ” (Psalm 51: 4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

        “David is saying “that sin, since it is against God, vindicates and establishes His Justice”.

        “God must be true and every man be a liar”

        Imagine then what Esau would finally say:

        “If the truth of God through my lie abounds onto His Glory, then your gospel gives me license to sin, you’re saying let us do evil that good may come.

        Imagine Paul’s final words: “your accusation of the gospel we preached, that it gives license to sin is evil, you try to ruin the reputation of the gospel, your condemation is Just.

        As the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3: 7 “But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, (then apparently that would mean His Glory is made more conspicuous by man’s unbelief and sin)

        Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

        Romans 9: 6, 7, 8 For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed

        Romans 9: 6, 7, 8 has reference to Isaiah 64:7-9 and Isaiah 64:7-9 supplies the context of Romans 9: 6, 7, 8.

        Isaiah 64:7-9 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

        But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

        Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

        And hast consumed us, because of our iniquities(Isaiah 64: 7) (meaning, He hast delivered us into the power of our iniquities.)

        Romans 1:28 God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting.

        God said in Genesis 6:3 ” My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”

        I cannot take any credit for these comments, for most of these comments are from The Epistle To The Romans by John Murray, for God help me to arranged it in sequence to justify what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3: : 4, 5, 6, 7.

        The idea of Esau speaking in his own unjustified defence using human logic comes from Paul (I speak after the manner of men: Romans 3: 5). Man cannot justify himself, he can’t sit in judgment against God and subject His counsel to human logic.

        Satan appealed to my human sense of logic, he accused God of being unjustified in judging the sinner, he invaded my thoughts and said “logic dictates that God is unjust in judging Esau”

        Placing Esau on the scene of history listening to the letters of Paul to the Romans 3: : 4, 5, 6, 7 is God’s design and He help me to see that His Counsel is not subject to human logic.

        God’s Counsel and Authority is not subject to human logic, what does that mean?

        Neither is it affected by, determine by, dependent on, or accountable to human logic.

        “remember the former things of old;

        for I am God, and there is no other;

        I am God, and there is none like me,

        declaring the end from the beginning

        and from ancient times things not yet done,

        saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,

        and I will accomplish all my purpose”(Isaiah 46:9- 10) English Standard Version

        There is a purpose why God is willing to show His wrath, make His power known and endure with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction(Romans 9:22) and that He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy(Romans 9:23)

        John Murray said if we insert the term “forebearance” we must say it was exercised in this longsuffering in order that His great power might be displayed. Embraced in this purpose are vessels of wrath and therefore viewed as deserving of wrath, the much longsuffering towards them is forebearing. In His forebearance God endures with much longsuffering “vessels of wrath” and in the infliction of His wrath he makes His power known.

        What God did in the case of Pharaoh(Romans 9: verse 17 illustrates what is more broadly applied to vessels of wrath in Romans 9: verse 22.

        Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.

        Pharaoh became the occasion to bring about the display of God’s great power in the plagues visited upon Eygpt and particularly in the destruction of Pharaoh’s hosts in the Red Sea and the passage of Israel on dry land.

        And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites.

        In Romans 9: verses 22, 23 the analogy of verse 21 is being applied and the vessels of wrath correspond to the potter’s vessel unto dishonour.

        In the case of Esau and his seed, the nation of Edom(the vessels of wrath) how did God make His power known and in the case of Jacob and his seed, the nation of Israel(vessels of mercy) how did He make the riches of His glory known?

        Looking at Malachi 1: verses 2,3,4,5, we read what the Lord had spoken to the nation of Israel.

        2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. 5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel.

        The Lord said to Israel that He loved them and Israel said “how has thou loved us? And the Lord said “was not Esau Jacob’s brother and yet I loved Jacob(and his seed) and I hated Esau(and his seed).

         

        We have to take note here that God loved Jacob(and his seed,they are the elected,the vessels of mercy) and hated Esau (and his seed,the vessels of wrath)

        And being the Elected was evidence of God’s love.

        Did the nation of Israel not know the assurance of being His Election? God did say it “Jacob I loved”

        When the people of Israel compared themselves to their neighbors the Edomitest(the descendants of Esau), they saw that God chose to preserve Israel and punished the Edomites. God chosed the Israelites(the descendants of Jacob) to be the elected in His kingdom, He gave them the Scriptures, the Temple, the Priests, the Covenants and the assurance of the promised Messiah. His love for them was and is eternal even though they failed Him again and again. He cared for them whenever they were in trouble, they were protected down through the ages and the Edomites were not. Their expectations were being fulfilled, Edom’s were not. He also in the end restored Israel to her land and left the mountains of Edom a wasteland.

        The Edomites were enemies of the Israelites, their relentless hatred for them(the Israelites) persisted throughout the ages.

        thou(Edom) hast had a perpetual enmity, and hast given over the children of Israel to the power of the sword in the time of their calamity(Ezekiel 35:5)

        Edom…did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever.(Amos 1:11)

        Because you rejoiced when the inheritance of Israel became desolate, that is how I will treat you. You will be desolate, Mount Seir, you and all of Edom. Then they will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:15)

        The Edomites shall be looked upon by all as abandoned to utter ruin. All that see them shall call them “the border of wickness”, a sinful nation.

        The Lord said to Israel: Your eyes shall see this(see the terrible judgments on Edom) and you shall say “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel” (Malachi 1: 5)

        In the case of Esau and his seed, the nation of Edom(the vessels of wrath) God made His power known and in the case of Jacob and his seed, the nation of Israel(vessels of mercy) He made the riches of His glory known.

        In His forebearance He endured with much longsuffering Edom’s enmity towards Israel and in the infliction of His wrath upon the nation of Edom He makes His power known.

        The Lord said to Israel:

        Your eyes shall see this(see the terrible judgments on Edom) and you shall say “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel” (Malachi 1: 5)

        In conclusion there’s no such thing as the “invisible strings” of His foreknowledge as the devil would “suggest” for King David said in (Psalm 51: 4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

        David is saying “that sin, since it is against God, vindicates and establishes His Justice”.

        Romans 3: 10

        as it is written,

        There is none righteous, no, not one;

        11 There is none that understandeth,

        There is none that seeketh after God;

        12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;

        There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.

        Psalm 14:1-3

        The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

        They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;

        There is no one who does good.

        The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men

        To see if there are any who understand,

        Who seek after God.

        They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;

        There is no one who does good, not even one.

        (Most of the text is taken from the American Standard Version 1901)

    • Eric

      Taylor,

      Your statement “I find nothing healing in believing in a message that you can not possible prove” brings with it the implication that your current belief system has been proven true.

      Christianity, to be sure, cannot be logically proven to be true. However, that is the same for any system of belief, not just Christianity. At it’s root, ANY belief is founded on assumptions. Even Evolution, which is held up by so many in the scientific community as the origins of life, is based on assumptions. In the end we all CHOOSE what we want to believe.

      You say “I simply will not be controlled by a belief based on faith as opposed to fact,” but the choice that you make to accept the underlying assumptions of your beliefs is an act of faith. There may be factual evidence behind your beliefs, but that evidence must be interpreted and is easily shaped by your underlying assumptions. One person, assuming there is no supernatural, looks at the fossil record (seeing that there is a great deal of commonality between the species), and comes to the conclusion that everything evolved from a single organism. Another person, accepting that there is a God who created the universe, can look at the same fossil record and see the commonality as evidence that there was a common Creator. Two people looking at the same facts and coming to vastly different conclusions based on their underlying assumptions.

      I would love to engage you regarding a logical explanation as to why “an ALL KNOWING GOD, knowingly creates people that he KNOWS will be gay” but I have to see to some other responsibilities and will have to revisit that another time 🙂

      • Taylor

        My current belief system is that since I have no tangible proof that the Christian god, exists, I have no reason to worship such a god. So, far it has been proven true that you can not offer any tangible irrefutable proof for the existence of that god. And no other religion has offered any tangible proof for the existence of their gods, so I have no reason to worship their gods as well.

        No one has asked me to worship, Evolution! 🙂

        The only factual proof for my beliefs is the FACT, that you have no tangible proof that your god exists.

        You won’t be able to give a logical explanation for why an all knowing god creates people that he knows will be gay, because their isn’t one. So, don’t worry about revisiting the question, many have tried, all have failed.

        You can’t call this god you worship, loving, benevolent, and just, when he knowingly creates people that he knows will suffer for all eternity, when he doesn’t have to create them at all.

        If I don’t like something, I don’t do it. I don’t like liver and onions, therefore, I do not make liver and onions, because I know if I do make liver and onions they will end up in the garbage. For me, not making liver and onions because I don’t like them, is logical.

        Your god, doesn’t like homosexuals, he knows who will be homosexual before he ever allows for their creation, and that they will end up in hell. Yet he goes ahead an creates them anyway. WHY… Why create something you hate, unless you get your kicks by creating people you know will suffer for all eternity?

        Your god, is a psychopath! And I see no reason why anyone would worship such a being. And thankfully, because I don’t believe he exists…I do not feel badly or guilty about not doing so.

        • Barb

          You say you have “no tangible proof” of the Christian God? Creation itself is all the proof God gives to anyone! Romans 1:18-25:

          18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

          24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

          26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

          28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

          • Taylor

            No, it may be all the proof that YOU need. But, It’s not all the proof that I need. I require more proof than what your holy book gives.

            You do realize that quoting the Bible to someone who doesn’t believe that the Bible is anything more than some Iron Age writers explanation for where we came from and why we are here, is meaningless to them, don’t you?

            It’s like me quoting Harry Potter to you, to prove that wizards exist.

          • Barb

            You are living proof of what is described above in Romans 1. Your refusal to acknowledge God has resulted in your angry demeanor and vitriolic tone. When you refuse to acknowledge His lordship, you develop a debased mind and despise His name. Turn to Christ, ask for His forgiveness, and He will cleanse you. His mercy endures forever and is new every morning.

            Every human being knows deep down in his/her soul that there is a power greater than self to which we must answer. We cannot save ourselves, no matter how strong we think we are. Tomorrow you could encounter a terrible situation and would have no one to turn to for help. There are many situations in life no other human being can help you with. I’m sure those people in Orlando went to that club thinking they would be home in a few hours after having a good time.

            God planted His own image on humanity, but sin marred that image. There is only one way to restore it, and that is to turn to Christ. His peace passes all understanding and He will give you a new heart and new desires. That is His promise to everyone who will sincerely ask for it. God bless you.

          • Taylor

            My refusal to acknowledge god, is because no one has offered any tangible irrefutable proof that this god of yours exists.

            It’s difficult to “despise” something that you don’t believe exists. It’s like telling me that I despise leprechauns.

            Why would I turn to Christ, when I don’t believe in the divinity of that person?

            You don’t get to tell me what I feel deep down in my “soul”. Your self-righteous arrogance is showing!

            I’m 65 years old..you don’t have to give me life lessons about what I may or may not experience tomorrow. Good grief…climb down off of that high horse of yours, you’re not offering anything to me, that many people before you haven’t already said.

            All that talk, and you still haven’t answered the ONE question that I have asked.

            Why does a supposed, loving, benevolent, just, ALL KNOWING GOD create gay people that he knows will be Gay, and who he knows will end up being punished for all eternity when he doesn’t have to create them at all????

            You seem to have an answer for everything else…but not that.

            Save your God’s blessing for someone who actually believes your god exists, and believes that those blessing will do some good.

            I’m not that person.

          • God does not create our personalities, attractions, feelings, etc. God gives us the spark of life, which by the way man still cannot accomplish. You say that God does these terrible things, I would like to know how do you know that these are things are bad? There has to be some guidelines that you use to say “You can’t call this god you worship, loving, benevolent, and just, when he knowingly creates people that he knows will suffer for all eternity, when he doesn’t have to create them at all.” How do you know that murder, rape, child abuse, and other things that we call evil are indeed evil? It the same as if I asked you to show me a crooked line. Unless you have seen and know what a straight line is then you could not possibly make any distinction.

          • Taylor

            “God does not create our personalities, attractions, feelings, etc”

            An assertion you can not prove. If an all knowing god knows everything about us before we even exist, including our personalities, attractions, feelings, etc. And that foreknowledge is perfect then we HAVE to HAVE those attributes He knew we would have..if we don’t he is NOT Omniscient! 🙂

            “You say that God does these terrible things, I would like to know how do you know that these are things are bad? ”

            I don’t know they are bad, I believe they are bad. If you don’t, fine with me…I just hope you’re never left alone in a room with young children.

          • Even though I knew you would grab the one example that you thought would make me ashamed and angry, you were wrong again, and I love you!

        • William

          Here is your answer, The Apostle Paul speaks of God’s Right as a potter over the clay He molds and His reason for doing it. Your argument will not be compelling to God no matter what you say to Him.
          Romans Chapter 9….But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

          14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

          19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

          “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
          and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
          26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
          there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

    • William

      You know once that was a compelling argument but it isn’t anymore, yea I remember when I first become a born again Christian and the devil was at the door invading my thoughts…..”look at all the guilt, fear, sacrifice and self-denial God is putting you through…blame Him”…..and then there’s Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and what God as a Father put him through…
      Isaiah 53:12 : “he hath poured out his soul unto death” ….for what?…the only logical answer according to the Bible “to save mankind from “the law of sin and death”(Roman 8 verse 2)……so what do I heed here?…….
      What is the soul’s worth? what is its value,? He considered its “worth” its “value” and that’s why “he hath poured out his soul unto death”. And since He considered its worth, its value how do we consider it?

  • Suzan D Reed

    No one wants to hear any message that says you can’t do whatever you want. We are all spoiled brat sinners who want our own way.

    • Barb

      Amen, Suzan!

    • Tammy Rainey

      Trans people are not doing what the want, but what they must to survive. Over half of us attempt to take our own lives at some point in order to relieve the mental and emotional distress that arises from our condition. Partly that’s because of the conflict between our brains and our reflection, partly it’s because the culture has decided we’re freaks and perverts who should be shunned and mocked, and partly because we do not WANT this and can find no other escape from it.

      As a follower of Christ, perhaps a more christ-like course of action is to empathize with hurting people and show kindness and compassion, rather than condemnation?

      • Suzan D Reed

        Have you considered that maybe you’re under spiritual war fare?

  • mike

    Everyone has faith as faith is a trust in something. Currently psychology says that being gay is normal. But psychology didn’t always say that. Prior to the early 1970s psychology taught that being gay was an illness. Did psychology suddenly base this change on Science? Science has as its gold standard: the RCT which is a double blind random controlled study duplicated by others to arrive at the same outcome. None of this happened. That psychology changes its mind without valid scientific proof is evidence that there is no science there and nothing to hang your hat that being gay is in fact normal.
    Instead the democratic process and politics made it normal and let’s be honest here.
    Faith or trust has to have substance otherwise one is on shaky ground.

    • Catholic Caretaker

      Well said Mike.
      – Reg

  • A.j. Beck

    Great article, right on target! Thanks for posting.

  • Alan

    Hey Matt, I love that you’re willing to stand and take the hits for the faith and never water down truth in your posts. For me, the truth you write is living water that refreshes and builds up my heart and soul. That others can take the same words as a flood of delusion you’re under just makes the point that spiritual truth is never arrived at by reason alone. . . never.

    I think it’s also fair to admit that church could do way better being like Jesus. With how it treats others the church often doesn’t do truth well at all both in and outside the body. Individually as members and together as church, truth = doctrine often trumps love and acts like a wall rather than a door between the church and the world. It’s not just the extremes of a Westboro baptist who use the bible as a cover for hate, it’s also the hard hearts of the KJV only who damn their brothers who find Jesus in a different translation, or the Calvinist who closes his heart to the Arminian – or vice versa- all due to their allegiance to the ‘truth.’ Truth that’s just held but is unliving always is unloving and experienced as judgmental. It’s different with Jesus, he is Truth and what he said is only Truth, but even the hard things he spoke were living and made a difference. So often the church is set on the truth/judgment thing but misses/lacks love. We would impact greater if we cared as much about having open hearts as we do about being correct.

    • Barb

      AMEN!

  • Judy Ann Lyoness

    The people that condemn you for offering Christ are only using you as the scapegoat. All of those who are depressed and suicidal over their gender crisis are feeling bad because God gave each of us a conscience that tells us when we have done wrong, whether they ever hear the gospel or not. LGBT would not be an “alternative” if it did not vary from what they know in their hearts is “normal”. They may blame society’s teachings for their discomfort (just like the blame Christians and anyone who holds a moral stance), but it is an indisputable fact that societies all over the whole world have the same beliefs in the difference of the sexes. I challenge anyone to find a society in history or today that totally embraced the LGBT lifestyle and survived. So it is not even evolutionarily feasible, if you want to use science as a basis. I do not hate those who are LGBT. I have LGBT friends. But I have never hated anyone for being a sinner. It’s what we are until we let Christ change us. Keep on loving, Matt!

    • Barb

      So very true!

    • Tammy Rainey

      “All of those who are depressed and suicidal over their gender crisis are
      feeling bad because God gave each of us a conscience that tells us when
      we have done wrong,”

      Nonsense. You make claims which you cannot in any wise support.

      I was saved by grace at the age of nine, except for one five year episode of near suicidal depression after high school, I spent the following decades as a very faithful Christian. At 24 I was licensed to the ministry in the SBC and spent 2 decades preaching the conservative Christian party line.

      Even though I’d experienced gender dysphoria since I was 5 or 6 years old.

      I have prayed seemingly a million prayers of repentance while mistakenly convinced this was sin, begged for healing at every turn, cried countless tears, sought ONLY to seek his will in this life and wanting more than anything to be a “normal” man who did not have this condition.

      And it never EVER lessened let alone went away. For 40 years and more, it never went away. The only healing I ever got was when I realized my religious leaders, and the culture around me, had been lying to me all my life.

      If being trans was wrong, something for our conscience to convict us of and push us to turn away from, then WHY was it that in those 20 years as a minister when I fully embraced the false anti-trans doctrine, even preaching it from time to time, and wanted nothing more in life than to be delivered from the sinful temptation so that it never crossed my mind again, always avoiding any thought of indulging it and repenting even for the existence of the desire….yet no peace came?
      Why?

      Frankly, madam, it is wildly arrogant and grossly insulting for someone who has no experience with this, no education or training about it, and no theological understanding of the subject (the Bible says nothing whatsoever against it) to try and explain it away with your uninformed speculation which serves no purpose but to make you feel better about your desire to look down on these people.

      Your Lord modeled empathy, compassion, kindness, mercy, grace and love towards the outcast and the marginalized – will you follow Him? Or follow the path of the Pharisees?

  • James

    We’ve heard this. We know this argument and theology. It’s always the churches response. It’s always the action that’s taken. It’s always the push for the theology and the apologetics.

    But this doesn’t raise money for Orlando. This doesn’t cause the church to say “no one should ever fear for their life for holding someone’s hand.”

    • Sandi Luckins

      Orlando was committed by a homosexual. It was homosexual against homosexual

      • James

        Umm, no he was not. The FBI even states so about 4 days ago. Regardless, what’s your point?

        • Sandi Luckins

          I don’t care what the FBI is saying now. It was committed by a homosexual. Homosexual violence against other homosexuals.

          • James

            You’re going to need a few more credentials or logic to make a statement you expect anyone to believe to be more accurate than that of the Federal Buraeu of Investigation. AGAIN, regardless, the hell is your point?

          • Sandi Luckins

            I’m sorry it was too clear for you to understand. It is not the church, or church teaching hurting homosexuals – they hurt each other. Feel better?

          • James

            Yet, again, you have no proof that he was gay. However, let’s assume he is. An isolated case of like hurting like does not overrule or erase the countless cases and decades, no centuries, of “Christians” or people in the name of Jesus, hurting or abusing the LGBT community

          • Sandi Luckins

            Like it or not, Jesus said that homosexuality is a sin that will keep one out of the Kingdom of Heaven. He created us – He sets the rules.
            People who suffer with homosexuals urges hurt each other all of the time. They keep each other out of God’s blessings – all in the name of love – which is no more than sin. They lie to each other that their sin is immutable and innate when Jesus said that He would heal us of our sin. If loving me is keeping me out of the blessings of God, I would say that is not love.

          • James

            If rig the point and shifting blame. Cool.

          • Sandi Luckins

            We know you ignore the truth. What are you trying to shift blame on now, James?

          • James

            I’m not shifting the blame on anyone. I’m calling out the church for its lack of empathy

          • Sandi Luckins

            The church has a lot of empathy for these sinners. I haven’t seen that much shown for adulterers, murderers and thieves. No one wants these people to go to Hell like the culture today does. The church keeps trying to protect them from that James.

        • Adam Jenson
    • David Foster

      I understand that the church represents Christ on Earth, but the church is still a sinful, tainted body and organization. Just like Pope Francis said today, the church will let people down and should probably apologize to different organizations and groups. This is because its a business, and a business doesn’t save people. Yes, a business can raise money for events and causes, but Jesus (a person) moves, touches, and enters into our hearts that changes our lives.

      • Barb

        Exactly!

      • James

        Again, the vast majority is aware of that message. But unlike Jesus, the church seems to have little interest in backing it up with actions. And they only seem to care about the LGBT community whenever it’s convenient to help them look pious.

        • David Foster

          ???

          • James

            You can try to repeat the gospel to every LGBT person you meet, but most if not all will not care to hear it. Because it will the millionth time they’ve heard it. They are very aware of the church and what it teaches. What they never seem to see are Christians who actually care about their lives and day to day needs. Why should they listen to the gospel of Christians who never put it to practice?

          • Judith77

            Because seeds are planted, and they are cultivated by love. Of course many care about day to day lives of LGBT, some are our neighbors, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters, etc. Even if they respond harshly, please don’t doubt that one or many of the seeds will flourish. We may not see how Christ is working in them. With Christ, all things are possible.

          • James

            Except, seeds aren’t being planted. Because the church does nothing. It makes a sermon or prays a prayer in church about the LGBT people but never puts their faith to practice. As James said, faith without works is dead.

          • mike

            The church are people who are suppose to be followers of Jesus. But many of these followers have treated LGBT+ as lepers sending them away, pretending they don’t exist, and when one is found among them many churches use ‘discipline’ to cast them out while ignoring their own many sins!
            This is a valid criticism James and the church will lose its charitable status soon which is good in my humble opinion. Persecution of the church has always been purifying and redemptive.And then maybe there will be authentic caring an loving of LGBT+ folk. Who can refuse genuine love?

          • cryptical

            That’s a pretty huge generalization, James. I have no doubt there are some churches who are “doing nothing”, as you say. There are many others who indeed are doing something. Personally, as a Christian, I’ve had many gay friends, and one of my best friends is a gay man. We are able to frankly discuss our differences and continue loving each other. I seek to love him and share Jesus with him as much as I can. Maybe you’ve been hurt by some church sometime, but please don’t let yourself use that as an excuse to reject Jesus. I agree with what David says upthread about where we are to look is to a holy and righteous and loving God. It’s to him we’re going to answer at the end of our lives. Not to a church or another human being. Peace.

  • Guy New

    as an EX TRANSSEXUAL = I AGREE = I USE TO BE A NASTY SINNER.. BUT I WAS TURNED AROUND AND FINALLY HAD TRUE GODLY SORROW AND THEN HAD MINISTERING ANGELS COME CELEBRATE ME A LOST SHEEP BACK INTO THE FOLD.. yes i was baptized 5 yrs previous but i still was living in willful sins.. yes i had reverted back to living as male as best as possible sine i had all the surgeries.. but i was still doing other sins.. yes we need to stop ALL SINS .. ALL WILLFUL SINS TAKE US TO HELL IF WE DO NOT REPENT.. .. one knows when they are willfully sinning.. i pray someone reads this and is convicted the the truth.. please repent and turn.. i am getting down on hands and knees for you now.. amen

    • Guy New

      Father you are the potter i am your clay.. form me into that which you desire for me to be.. i surrender my life to you and your Son.. i thank you for sending your Son Jesus to die for me so that i might be free.. amen.. i love you my sweet Jesus ..

      • Judith77

        Guy New, you didn’t allow evil to completely take your soul. Thanks be to God! I hope that you talk and write about your experiences, you may be an instrument to Christ in saving someones soul and from self mutilation. Christ be with you, always.

        • Tammy Rainey

          he’d need a Biblical case to do that – and there isn’t one.

          As a follower of Christ, perhaps a more christ-like course of action is
          to empathize with hurting people and show kindness and compassion,
          rather than condemnation?

    • Tammy Rainey

      please explain to me in specific detail, using proper Biblical exegesis, how specifically we may conclude that transsexual transition is “nasty sin”?

  • Alan

    Maybe the better question is, “Are LGBT people being damaged by Traditional Christians?”
    There is huge need for believers to be alive in Truth, not just live on truths they were brought up with.

  • Eddie

    I get where you are coming from Matt. It is difficult to maintain one’s path along the straight and narrow (no pun intended!) yet hear the heartbreak from those individuals who opt to live the gay lifestyle because they don’t want to go through this life alone. Loneliness sucks, yet so does regret. It is this life, not the afterlife that people tend to focus on mostly because this is their reality — the here and now, but this reality will pass away. They say life is short, live in the moment, etc. Then what? How long is the life and how much time is in the moment? I don’t want the loneliness either. I don’t want to perish more so.

  • None ya

    If we’re admitting that “what we believe is what we believe because it is what feels right to us”, then let us belive what we believe and leave us be. Quit pushing your beliefs on others. The end.

  • love2write

    I have had and do have gay friends and not one of them is ever happy in their lifestyle. When they admitted the burden and sorrow of their chosen lifestyle was too much, some came to the Lord and were joyfully transformed. Overall, we need to recognize our own desperate need for God before change is even possible. As long as we see ourselves as self-sufficient and all-knowing, we have idolized ourselves and will consistently deny our need for God. Also, as long as we hold onto this attitude, our sin and self-deception will continue to harden our hearts which takes us further and further away from any hope of salvation. (I am speaking from experience, not a gay lifestyle, just a very self-centred one that nearly destroyed me. Learned that the pleasure of sin only lasts a moment, then there’s hell to pay and no escape outside of the gracious help of God).

    Heb 3:8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    Heb 3:12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
    Heb 3:13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    To continue to sin hardens our hearts, and the longer we continue, the harder it is to change. Therefore, repentance must be more than a mental assent that we are doing wrong. When we are touched by God, it is then that we fall on our face and recognize our depravity. King David recognized his own sin and had a godly sorrow for it. It was his heart that changed:

    Pas 51:2  Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
    Psa 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

    ALL HAVE SINNED! This is true for ALL OF US! God loves us and is there waiting for us to respond to Him! He’ll pull us out of any pit and change our sorrow into joy! He did it for me and many of my friends, and He’ll do it for anyone!

    • Mr. M

      I’m gay and am happy as ever. The only time I wasn’t happy in my life was when I was in the closet and felt the need to date women.

      • love2write

        It is not about our personal happiness. It is about doing the right thing according to the Word of God.

        • Mr. M

          And what is the “word of God” exactly?

          • love2write

            The Bible. Also, Jesus: John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

          • Mr. M

            Says who? Maybe Buddhists or Hindus are the correct religion. Maybe one of the many hundreds of religions that preceded the Abrahamic religions is the true and correct religion.

          • love2write

            Isa 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
            Isa 45:6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
            Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
            Isa 45:8  Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
            Isa 45:9  Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

            Bible prophecies are fulfilled to the letter concerning the birth of Christ, death, resurrection, and continue to be and will be fulfilled re: the state of Israel, world events and end times prophecies. Mostly, God cannot lie whereas man is flawed in his thinking and theology. All religions are man-made.

            True Christianity is not a religion but a relationship with God.

            Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
            Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

          • Mr. M

            “All religions are man-made” – and so is the bible. It was written and edited by men and kings throughout the centuries. It is not the “word of God”.

  • For two decades I was poisoned with the idea that if I was gay, I was going to hell. No one had told me of the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ. Sure Jesus was out there, and if only I was saved I would no longer be gay. When I came to the Lord, my depression had ended and I longer wanted to kill myself, but why was I still attracted to the same sex? Had I done something wrong? Was God really sending me to hell because I was gay? This was bad theology and it lead me to a hardcore gay lifestyle.
    But it wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows as promised by the LGBT community. I saw much death and disease, facing the prospect of having HIV myself (about the scariest time in my life). Yeah, they don’t want to talk about that. There was much promiscuity. They don’t want to talk about that. There was no love from any of the guys I dated, nor did I love any of them. It was all about sex. They don’t want to talk about that.
    It was only when I came back to the Father that I was able to heal. I was able to see the lies that both sides had spoken to me. I was not going to hell for being gay, but for being a sinner. The LGBT community had done nothing but lie, to keep me away from my Lord.

  • Whitney

    Matt Moore I read your article and I think you are right we have been demonizing each other. You have the right to live your life as you want and I respect your walk with Christ as you fight you SSA. I disagree with you about the LGBT’s message of self acceptance. I grew up in the Church, Pentecostal, and I hated having SSA. I hated it because I fully believed I was going to hell and that my sin was the worst kind of sin, my sin was worse that stealing, killing, lying, drunkness or even having sex before marriage. I thought these things because my church preached these things, I felt even worse about it because I had to lie to everyone in order to escape having their beliefs directed towards me. One young man was outed in our church and the family ended up leaving because of the treatment and gossiping. You see I made the decision to never go back to church after I left home because of the churches message, I know some will say I shouldn’t feel the message is hateful peole are only “speaking in truth”. That message was hurtful and nearly destroyed my relationship with god and nearly destroyed my life because I internalized the message there was something wrong with me. As I actually accepted my SSA and learned to love myself I started to want to rebuild my relationship with god, but I will never go back to the church. I was depressed when I was in church, having left the church and fully embracing who I am has lead me to a much happier life. I do not wallow in pity and angre like before, I actually wake up and look forward to the day. Many will think I am lying or fooling myself but the LGBT community’s message helped me. I regreat that gay christians are treated with distain within the community, we should be more understanding and accepting of your message since it’s possible to disagree with someone with hating them. As I said I respect your walk but I fully disagree with your premise that church’s message is the message our community needs the most.

    • Hi Whitney. Like you I was exposed to religion that constantly pounded in my head that all gays go to hell. It led to the denial that I was SSA, but knowing I was. I hated myself and was dealing with the suicide of my best friend. I nearly killed myself, but that was the night I actually came to the Lord. Then again I heard that I was going to hell for being gay. But I was saved, wasn’t I? I quit going to church, and no one came after me.
      I delved hard into the hardcore gay lifestyle and lived this way for about eighteen months. I got out of it when I was offered money for sex, and when a guy tried to rape me. Still I would not go back to church. I thought I could learn about the Bible and spirituality on my own, but I was deluding myself. All I leaned was pure garbage. In the mean time I became more bitter and angry at Christians and thought of them as phonies. You couldn’t pay me to go to church.
      Then a massive stroke hit four years ago. I almost died. My memories were totally erased, including the death of my friend and what I had heard. I needed God just to relearn how to walk. I started going back to church, and relearning everything I thought I knew and realized I didn’t know anything at all.

  • Let me start by saying that I hope that when you say, “I have always held a soft spot in my heart for the LGBT community”, that it is the same soft spot that you carry for all those that are still in sin. Having said that let me address your statement that you never hammer down hellfire and brimstone, Matt, my friend, you are holding back a great deal of scriptures concerning a part of the nature of our Lord. Yes, the Lord is kind and full of grace, but He is also a God of wraith, jealousness, vengeance and will judge the wicked of this world, casting them into hell and eternal separation from His presence.
    It is also important that you realize that it is no surprise that you are hated those that do not have salvation or any true knowledge of our Lord and our God. They hate you for one reason and that is you point out, through the Word of God their
    sins and their hearts are convicted by those words of scripture and they are not ready to give up their sin. You also talked about how they say that you through sharing the gospel, or Good News, that you have caused many to become depressed and suicidal. This is the most ignorant and damnable statement that I’ve read in quite some time, to suggest that God given Word would lead someone to commit suicide is blasphemy. May I suggest that whoever made that statement swallow that lie and swallow it quickly, God will deal with you.
    There is nothing more joyful than to obey God and as long as I am hated and reviled by the world then I know I’m in the will of God! We are told in the Bible by Christ Jesus to bless those, bless and not curse those that do us evil. It is also important to know that I don’t believe what I believe because it feels right, I believe it because God has shown me time and time again that it is the Truth!

  • William

    God looks out from eternity, he knows the evil that men will do before they’re even born. Are they controlled by the “invisible strings” of his foreknowledge?

    Romans 9:13 : Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

    Jacob valued the birthright even though he took it by deceit and Esau despised it ( it wasn’t of any importance to him) Genesis 25:34: thus Esau despised his birthright.

    “For ye know how that afterward, when he(Esau) would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.” Hebrews 12:17

    In Acts 5:31 it is said: Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”God hath exalted Christ with his right hand, to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel”

    It denotes that he has “dominion” and “power,” especially the power to give repentance and the pardon of sins.

    Esau wasn’t shown any mercy, he “found no place of repentance,”

    Imagine if you will if Esau lived in the time of the Apostle Paul and he was among the Jews listening to the words of Paul from the Letter to the Romans 3: 4, 5, 6, 7.

    4 let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy words, And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.

    5But if our unrighteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.)

    6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

    7But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.

    Imagine if you will what Esau would say in his defence, he would think about paul’s words in a logical way( as paul said “I speak after the manner of men” meaning human reasoning)

    Esau: “if the unrighteousness of man serves to display more clearly the righteousness of God, then God would be unrighteous in executing his wrath upon the ungodly.

    Esau: Then logic would dictate that God cannot justly inflict punishment, so why is it I am still judged as a sinner?

    Imagine what Paul would say.

    “God is not subjected to your logic, you speak after the manner of men, do you have the authority to sit in judgment against God? God is justified when He speaks, he is clear when he judges.

    “Did you not hear the words of King David, he said ” (Psalm 51: 4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

    “David is saying “that sin, since it is against God, vindicates and establishes His Justice”.

    “God must be true and every man be a liar”

    Imagine then what Esau would finally say:

    “If the truth of God through my lie abounds onto His Glory, then your gospel gives me license to sin, you’re saying let us do evil that good may come.

    Imagine Paul’s final words: “your accusation of the gospel we preached, that it gives license to sin is evil, you try to ruin the reputation of the gospel, your condemation is Just.

    As the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3: 7 “But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, (then apparently that would mean His Glory is made more conspicuous by man’s unbelief and sin)

    Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Romans 9: 6, 7, 8 For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed

    Romans 9: 6, 7, 8 has reference to Isaiah 64:7-9 and Isaiah 64:7-9 supplies the context of Romans 9: 6, 7, 8.

    Isaiah 64:7-9 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

    But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

    And hast consumed us, because of our iniquities(Isaiah 64: 7) (meaning, He hast delivered us into the power of our iniquities.)

    Romans 1:28 God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting.

    God said in Genesis 6:3 ” My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”

    I cannot take any credit for these comments, for most of these comments are from The Epistle To The Romans by John Murray, for God help me to arranged it in sequence to justify what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3: : 4, 5, 6, 7.

    The idea of Esau speaking in his own unjustified defence using human logic comes from Paul (I speak after the manner of men: Romans 3: 5). Man cannot justify himself, he can’t sit in judgment against God and subject His counsel to human logic.

    Satan appealed to my human sense of logic, he accused God of being unjustified in judging the sinner, he invaded my thoughts and said “logic dictates that God is unjust in judging Esau”

    Placing Esau on the scene of history listening to the letters of Paul to the Romans 3: : 4, 5, 6, 7 is God’s design and He help me to see that His Counsel is not subject to human logic.

    God’s Counsel and Authority is not subject to human logic, what does that mean?

    Neither is it affected by, determine by, dependent on, or accountable to human logic.

    “remember the former things of old;

    for I am God, and there is no other;

    I am God, and there is none like me,

    declaring the end from the beginning

    and from ancient times things not yet done,

    saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,

    and I will accomplish all my purpose”(Isaiah 46:9- 10) English Standard Version

    There is a purpose why God is willing to show His wrath, make His power known and endure with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction(Romans 9:22) and that He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy(Romans 9:23)

    John Murray said if we insert the term “forebearance” we must say it was exercised in this longsuffering in order that His great power might be displayed. Embraced in this purpose are vessels of wrath and therefore viewed as deserving of wrath, the much longsuffering towards them is forebearing. In His forebearance God endures with much longsuffering “vessels of wrath” and in the infliction of His wrath he makes His power known.

    What God did in the case of Pharaoh(Romans 9: verse 17 illustrates what is more broadly applied to vessels of wrath in Romans 9: verse 22.

    Pharaoh was “raised up” meaning raised up on the scene of history for a particular purpose. Raised up on the scene of history to the role he played in connection with the redemption of Israel from Egypt.

    Pharaoh became the occasion to bring about the display of God’s great power in the plagues visited upon Eygpt and particularly in the destruction of Pharaoh’s hosts in the Red Sea and the passage of Israel on dry land.

    And God’s Name was thus proclaimed abroad in all the earth by the Israelites.

    In Romans 9: verses 22, 23 the analogy of verse 21 is being applied and the vessels of wrath correspond to the potter’s vessel unto dishonour.

    In the case of Esau and his seed, the nation of Edom(the vessels of wrath) how did God make His power known and in the case of Jacob and his seed, the nation of Israel(vessels of mercy) how did He make the riches of His glory known?

    Looking at Malachi 1: verses 2,3,4,5, we read what the Lord had spoken to the nation of Israel.

    2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. 5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel.

    The Lord said to Israel that He loved them and Israel said “how has thou loved us? And the Lord said “was not Esau Jacob’s brother and yet I loved Jacob(and his seed) and I hated Esau(and his seed).

     

    We have to take note here that God loved Jacob(and his seed,they are the elected,the vessels of mercy) and hated Esau (and his seed,the vessels of wrath)

    And being the Elected was evidence of God’s love.

    Did the nation of Israel not know the assurance of being His Election? God did say it “Jacob I loved”

    When the people of Israel compared themselves to their neighbors the Edomitest(the descendants of Esau), they saw that God chose to preserve Israel and punished the Edomites. God chosed the Israelites(the descendants of Jacob) to be the elected in His kingdom, He gave them the Scriptures, the Temple, the Priests, the Covenants and the assurance of the promised Messiah. His love for them was and is eternal even though they failed Him again and again. He cared for them whenever they were in trouble, they were protected down through the ages and the Edomites were not. Their expectations were being fulfilled, Edom’s were not. He also in the end restored Israel to her land and left the mountains of Edom a wasteland.

    The Edomites were enemies of the Israelites, their relentless hatred for them(the Israelites) persisted throughout the ages.

    thou(Edom) hast had a perpetual enmity, and hast given over the children of Israel to the power of the sword in the time of their calamity(Ezekiel 35:5)

    Edom…did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever.(Amos 1:11)

    Because you rejoiced when the inheritance of Israel became desolate, that is how I will treat you. You will be desolate, Mount Seir, you and all of Edom. Then they will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:15)

    The Edomites shall be looked upon by all as abandoned to utter ruin. All that see them shall call them “the border of wickness”, a sinful nation.

    The Lord said to Israel: Your eyes shall see this(see the terrible judgments on Edom) and you shall say “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel” (Malachi 1: 5)

    In the case of Esau and his seed, the nation of Edom(the vessels of wrath) God made His power known and in the case of Jacob and his seed, the nation of Israel(vessels of mercy) He made the riches of His glory known.

    In His forebearance He endured with much longsuffering Edom’s enmity towards Israel and in the infliction of His wrath upon the nation of Edom He makes His power known.

    The Lord said to Israel:

    Your eyes shall see this(see the terrible judgments on Edom) and you shall say “Great is the Lord beyond the border of Israel” (Malachi 1: 5)

    In conclusion there no such thing as the “invisible strings” of His foreknowledge as the devil would “suggest” for King David said in (Psalm 51: 4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, And done that which is evil in thy sight; That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

    David is saying “that sin, since it is against God, vindicates and establishes His Justice”.

    Romans 3: 10

    as it is written,

    There is none righteous, no, not one;

    11 There is none that understandeth,

    There is none that seeketh after God;

    12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;

    There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.

    Psalm 14:1-3

    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

    They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;

    There is no one who does good.

    The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men

    To see if there are any who understand,

    Who seek after God.

    They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;

    There is no one who does good, not even one.

    (Most of the text is taken from the American Standard Version 1901)